What the hell's happening to MMA?

[Merryprankster]

San Shou would easily be marketable for viewers, but MMA wouldn't because of the grappling intensive nature. There's a lot of stuff that goes on on the mat that's pretty cool, but you have to REALIZE it's pretty cool! A throw looks spectacular. A choke and it's slick defense, does not. Neither does working for position.

Willow, two questions :

1. If a person enters UFC or similar events are they automatically fighting for the purpose of brutalization or does that depend on mindset?

2. One of the traditional purposes of the Lai Tei (sp?) tournaments was to determine who and what style was "the best?" How is that mentality different than today's mentality? Or are you arguing that you have to take it in historical context--fighting is unacceptable in today's society, but it wasn't then, so consequently, fighting competitions should be unacceptable as well?

[Suntzu]

BJJ would need a John Madden type to hi=lite the nuainces of the ground game… dude wuth a telestrator and colorful commentary to keep me awake during the slow parts…

isnt san shou spectacular????

[The Willow Sword]

what is the prupose of entering the UFC or similar events. are they automatically entering for the purpose of brutalization?
not necessarily,,but that is what they end up doing.

question 2: the mentality seems to be the same. and now that we have media and advertising we can see this mentality permeate the whole of martial arts society here in this country and other countries. "we are the best" "well prove it" "lets meet in the ring and see" what is going on here? an ego fest with a purpose to not promote the precepts that the masters teach us but to rather take these precepts and with a naive and rather "cult" like way perpetuate a mindset unbefitting a school or traditional or non-traditional martial system.

OK so i can guess that the reason why people enter these competitions is to test what they have learned in a semi-controlled environment and to see if they can survive the Gauntlet. my question is "WHY?" what will you ultimatley accomplish by doing this? is it worth your life? is it worth hurting the life of another to see if "you" can?
how arrogantly presumptious to think that by a violent act you can attain ANY sort of enlightement or resolve with yourself.
well you might say" if iam ever in a situation on the street where i might have to use what i have learned to defend myself i want to be able to know that i could sussessfully defend myself"
well let me address that with another question" HOW ON EARTH DO YOU COMPARE WHAT YOU DO IN THE RING WITH WHAT HAPPENS ON THE STREET?
so many uncontrolled factors that change the dynamic of everything, guns knives multiple attackers,,,no medical attention,,,,no RULES.

Thats why i believe that these sport events are frivolous wastes of time. and i truly do not think that these guys who do this are all low lifes,,but as we have seen with individuals such as tank abbot and a few others there IS a low life element that is attracted to that endeavor. and so to with CMA and JMA and TKD and alot of other systems. but isnt it up to the teacher,,the master to take this notion of fighting and show that it is truley NOT to be taken lightly and that one utilizes these arts for self preservation and the defense of those who cannot defend themselves? these are age old precepts that Shaolin apparently followed and others.

what more questions are there?

MRTWS

[fa_jing]

MP - I enjoyed your first post.


Regarding the competition, death matches for no other reason than stylistic rivalry were never a good thing, even though they happened much in the history of Kung Fu. The only justification for violence is when it is provoked, for instance man kills your brother, you kill him. Even then you can get into a vicious cycle of revenge, so people realized there's a better way to live and that's why we have laws and police, even though there are drawbacks, especially when justice is not done by the system and people aren't adequately protected.

As far as sporting-level violence, it is very much debateable. Should we watch a boxing match? We tickle the part of our brain that was once eminantly important, back when there were wild beasts to fight off and barbarian raiders and such. One could make a case that it forms an essential part of our humanity to live vicariously through these artificially created struggles. And, I am willing to admit that I love to watch boxing. But there is a price to be paid - athlete's suffering brain damage, football players becoming paralyzed, kid gets hit in the heart by a baseball and dies. We cannot take joy in these things. Unfortunately there is Yin and Yang in the situation, a dark side to our entertainment.

As long is no one is seriously hurt, it's not a bad thing.
We might now ask the question, would it satisfy our personal need to only see competition in non-violent sports? Such as track & field, for instance? Tennis? Air Hockey?? To some extent, yes...Although we have a primitive, animalistic desire to see the more violent sports. I cannot tell you whether this desire should be aquiesced to or surpressed. There's no question that it forms part of our humanity, whether positive or negative. That's something that is going to be up to you as a reasoning individual and according to your religion and moral outlook.

Sorry if I don't come down clearly on one side or the other with this issue, it is something that I continue to ponder.

[Suntzu]

well, lets face it… people like sports, whether they watch or participate… it's natural, primative even… and people pay be money to be apart of it in there own way… to spectate, sponsor or participate… in YOUR perfect, ideal world we would all sing Kumbayah( or however u spell it ) and practice Tai Chi for health... but this aint it... fighters fight for $$$, fame, ego, to prove something to there daddy, whatever reason... and its all valid... is it worth it??? it is to me and i guess it is to them and it is to the people that watched... is that a good thing... who knows but i'm nobody's judge... but this aint what this thread is about... its about the MARKETING of MMA... now either get in the ring or get out the way!!!!

I cannot tell you whether this desire should be aquiesced to or surpressed.

it cant be… its nature animals hunt, they kill… humans were given a so called more evolved brain but there still is the primal areas that control flinching, blinking, adrenaline responses, etc… we are 'smart' enuff to know that killing is wrong ( except when declared by Congress, but thats another thread ) and decided to quench our primal thirst for blood in sporting events... now i done went and got carried away off topic... sorry...

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't have any problem with sportfighting as long as it is done safely (or as safely as possible) and with good sportsmanship. There are inevitably going to be some pretty unsophisticated people drawn to it, but so what? The world is full of dumb@sses, and nothing's going to change that. It is sort of unfortunate that aiming for the lowest common denominator is the best way to make an @ssload of cash, but I don't see any way to change that either.

I see a lot of good technique in the little MMA I've watched, but considerably less class. Still, there are some classy folks out there, from what I can tell, so it's not a lost cause yet.

I agree with the previous post that said a good, knowledgable commentator would be a HUGE boost for the grappling side of MMA in terms of spectator popularity. I have no idea who that could be, though.

[SevenStar]

My answer to the billboard issue: buy a judo gi. actually, BJJ gi manufacturer's charge extra to have the logos put on there. Being the cheap bastard that I am, I won't pay for it. Who knows why people get them though - may be it makes them feel like they are sponsored or something.


"if you want to test yourself,,,do it in the kwoon or the dojo,,and do it in a serious manner. dont play around and know that you will get hurt at times but also know that the ONLY difference between true training and sparring in the kwoon or dojo and the street? is that in the kwoon we have respect for each other and when we hurt each other we do what we can to help heal it."

I see some flaws there. First, you really can't test yourself against people you train with on a regular basis. Even if you go all out, the spirit of the fight is not there, or at least not as present as it is against someone you are less familiar with. Second, in the training hall, you are fighting other students who train in YOUR STYLE. If you are testing yourself, you want to be reassured that you can hold your own against whatever practitioner of whatever style you are faced with. Look what happened when the UFC came about - it opened the world's eyes to grappling. All these TMA that never thought grappling was a threat got a mudhole stomped in them.



"how many of you who train in your schools have the knowledge to set a bone if it breaks? to stop bleeding of a nose,,,to work out a cramp? i doubt many have that skill. or to do CPR if someone stopped breathing? i heartalk of how its so cool to be able to kick ass,,,,i think its even cooler when you are able to mend and heal as WELL as kick ass.

we have a purple belt that is a nurse and works in the ER. Also, we train in a gym, and there are plenty of sports medicine guys there. Also, in judo (at least in my state) you are not allowed to coach judo unless you are CPR certified.

[The Willow Sword]

I see some flaws there. First, you really can't test yourself against people you train with on a regular basis. Even if you go all out, the spirit of the fight is not there, or at least not as present as it is against someone you are less familiar with. Second, in the training hall, you are fighting other students who train in YOUR STYLE. If you are testing yourself, you want to be reassured that you can hold your own against whatever practitioner of whatever style you are faced with. Look what happened when the UFC came about - it opened the world's eyes to grappling. All these TMA that never thought grappling was a threat got a mudhole stomped in them.

"thats why i am attempting to get together a sparring and training group to meet on the weekends and train. as far as my eyes being opened to grappling,,,,my eyes were already open to groundfighting and it seems to me that in the ring ground fighting is king,,,,but on the street,,the gun is king and so is the knife and the bat and the group of multiple attackers. (get my point?)"


we have a purple belt that is a nurse and works in the ER. Also, we train in a gym, and there are plenty of sports medicine guys there. Also, in judo (at least in my state) you are not allowed to coach judo unless you are CPR certified.

"thats good,,i wish that my former school had that,,but the sparring was such that it was never really needed,,for the sparring was real cat and mouse and tame."

MRTWS

[Tigerstyle]

It's all about balance, Willow Sword.

You ask why people would put themselves through such a "brutal" activity for no reason other than serving one's own ego, and as an excuse for "brutalizing" others.

I say don't worry about all that. Just think that all the brutality and ego driving those mindless events gives you a guide to measure how peacful, humble, and mature you really are in comparison.


Yin and yang, TWS. Yin and yang...

[The Willow Sword]

peaceful? sometimes mature? uhh i like to think i am but when i think i get into trouble.

humble: if you say so. i know my shortcomings.

MRTWS

[SevenStar]

"thats why i am attempting to get together a sparring and training group to meet on the weekends and train. as far as my eyes being opened to grappling,,,,my eyes were already open to groundfighting and it seems to me that in the ring ground fighting is king,,,,but on the street,,the gun is king and so is the knife and the bat and the group of multiple attackers. (get my point?)"

all the more reason to know how to grapple. From my experience with streetfights, if multiple attackers and or a club is involved, there is a good chance that you will end up on the ground. with a good knowledge of grappling, you will be better able to get back to your feet.

[fa_jing]

Anybody else get freaked out sometimes by all the violence in Chinese Kung Fu movies? Sometimes the scenes are over-the-top, like c'mon, did the girl have to die too? Then after the whole village has been slaughtered, all the enemies and all but two of the protagonists are lying in pools of blood, the two remaining good guys look around with satisfaction, slap hands and head off to the tune of happy Chinese Music. Dim Sum time!!

S'all right, though, I know it's just a movie. Cartoon violence, almost. It's just wierd how they try to show the justification of violence, it always starts with good people gettin' whacked. Very formulaic.

[SevenStar]

training your hijack tactics, eh?

[Suntzu]

this thang been hi-jacked

[Internal Boxer]

In reference to the original question I recently picked up a grappling magazine in a shop and thought I would have a quick flick through before I bought it. What a load of rubbish, zero content I put it straight back on the shelf.

My first comp I enetered, it was sad to see all the t-shirts for sale with things like "Vale Tudo - Zombie Nation throw in the shovel before the towel" with a pic of a rotting corpse on the front. And others like "Submission Fighting for the real Warrior". With people actualling buying them and wearing them!!!! I just find it quite sad that people buy into this sh.it.

This macho bull only adds fuel for the self rightious moral crusaders, the kind that point out the flaws in everyone else but cannot even focus on themselves because it easy to find fault in others. These are the guys who "generalize" who tar everyone with the same brush, like anyone who enters such tournies are all egotists. Well whats funny is by constantly imposing their views they are only reaffirming their own ego, in their desire to be right!!!