Rant: chin na and bjj

[SevenStar]

people say "in bjj you only wrestle around a ring trying to tap someone", yet chin na is supposed to be wildly effective. wtf? Do they not realize that the tapping is only a tap because you don't want to get something broken or get choked out? the arrogance that abounds in alot of cma pisses me off to the fullest extent of pisstivity.

[fa_jing]

Do wrist locks exist in BJJ? I think the emphasis in Qin Na is small joint manipulations. I would definitely look twice at someone that tried to doubt BJJ's effectiveness, other than coming up with situations where you can't use it "A ninja left caltrops lying all over the floor."

[SevenStar]

bjj does manipulate the wrist, although it's not a major target. There are various armbars and shoulder locking attacks that, when fought, leave the wrist open, in which case, you manipulate it. It's used mainly to make them stop fighting the armbar or shoulder manipulation, but can also be used to tap someone.

[Merryprankster]

Can wrist locks work? Yes. Are they high percentage? No. I've tapped out a few people to wrist locks, but the truth is that there are too many degrees of freedom of movment for them to work frequently and well. I usually get them off of armbars that are being defended well, or I'll attack them to open something else up. You'd be surprised how hard a finger lock is to get.

Aikido experts, feel free to flame away, as I'm sure I've upset some basic mindset here. Of course, remember we aren't all Ueshiba, slightly imbalanced, and didn't spend 21 hours a day practicing...

[Ford Prefect]

I think they are higher percentage than we give them credit for. I tapped twice to wrist locks (same guy same day) when I first started BJJ, but after I knew what to look for, I never tapped to one again. That went likewise for newbies I ended up tapping. It's difficult to get that control over an opponent when they know what to look for.

[Water Dragon]

In my experience, it is easier to manipulate some joints standing (wrist, fingers, neck, spine) and easier to manipulate others on the ground (elbow, shoulder, knee, ankle).

I have no idea why this is though

[kenso]

Given BJJ's roots in Judo it's easy to see why small joint manipulations aren't used. In Judo competition, you aren't allowed to attack any joint below the elbow. Some BJJ schools have added them as a side area of study it seems, but I don't know how proficient they really are at them.
Small joint manipulations often rely on body positioning to prevent escape or reversal; that's one reason they can be very difficult to apply on the ground.

[yenhoi]

Chin na is chinese, so it is obviously more mystically chi powered and superior to anything a half wit brazillian guy came up with.

Most people dont even get quality kung-fu training, and when they do, most systems lack the chin na, or dont train realistically, or on resisting opponents, etc, etc, same old arguments of kung-fu vs bjj/mma.

Tibetan(sp?) Snake Boxing is superior.

[SevenStar]

I'll take cheese, but only if it's meunster or provolone

[mysteri]

as a martial artist, i respect BJJ and think its highly effective. its jus to the point, like a lot of systems, where its become very popular and highly commercialized(like wing chun). i honestly dont think there are a plethora of good wing chun teachers/fighters do a lot to the fact that u get these bozo's that got half of their trainin from a halfway decent teacher(like maybe a few years worth tops) and the other half from a plethora of WC videos and then turn around to open up schools. i feel the same about BJJ, and a lot of other arts as well. too many people have made it out to be somethin that its not and what it is is jus another art. why are u trippin, doesnt BJJ ulimately derive from the dim mak/chin na that a chinese master bought to japan which in turn spawned the beginnin of the 3 main schools of grapplin in JMA? and some brazilians jus adapted some of the japanese JJ(which has MANY many schools btw.) techniques and specialized in ground fighting? where's the conflict? jus my 2 cents..

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by kenso

Small joint manipulations often rely on body positioning to prevent escape or reversal; that's one reason they can be very difficult to apply on the ground.

Body positioning and immobilization of the opponent are most effective when you are on the ground.

[SevenStar]

dim mak? in bjj? no.

"i honestly dont think there are a plethora of good wing chun teachers/fighters do a lot to the fact that u get these bozo's that got half of their trainin from a halfway decent teacher(like maybe a few years worth tops) and the other half from a plethora of WC videos and then turn around to open up schools. i feel the same about BJJ, and a lot of other arts as well. too many people have made it out to be somethin that its not and what it is is jus another art. "

That's where arts like bjj and judo are different. They compete. if the stuff they were learning was crappy, they would consistently lose. That's why it's harder to have fraudulent bjj or mma schools. If the material sucks, it will be brought to the light.

What was brought to japan is what is now karate, not jujutsu.

And there is no conflict. I just think it's flicted that some cma think that chin na is all about combat and the armbars, chokes, wrist and leglocks in bjj are only to make you tap. If they gave any thought to it, they would see that it's not to hard to break the boneor choke them out instead of merely tapping them.

[Serpent]

Sevenstar, I hear what you're saying, but you're not totally correct. Karate wasn't the only result of teachings coming out of China. JuJitsu is just as much a result of the Chinese methods as karate, as far as I know. Anybody care to correct me or back me up on that?

[KnightSabre]

SevenStar,

You've become quite the defender of BJJ,I dig it

It's nice yo see that there are other (no troll) people that are passionate about BJJ.

Did you hear about Nogiera 232 pounds beating Bobb Sapp 370 pounds by arm bar yesterday,just goes to show how BJJ can overcome far superior size and strength.

[Former castleva]

I bet they tap out in CMA too,that is a common tactic among MA in general.
When the pressure is getting too high,it is seen to be better to tap than scream (quite basic,huh...just had to write that out)
At least theoretically,chin-na is an area so large that it would make it´s own art pretty easily,and many arts do a bunch of it.
Only in basic joint manipulation there are-finger,wrist,elbow,shoulder.There is also a bit of waist,back and neck,some leg/foot stuff maybe...no toes.

When it comes to aikido,wrist,elbow and shoulder are trained in locks/pins.