What do you think?

[Leimeng]

~ I Came across this school a while ago and thought I would share it with you all for general amusement and knowledge. Let me know what you all think.

www.ravenhill.com


Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

[HuangKaiVun]

Sounds neat.

I might go pay them a visit in person.

[Crimson Phoenix]

sounds fake...the style, that is...wind fist "a shaolin animal dragon style with 8 animals"??
But well, we can't and shouldn't judge just from a website...

[HuangKaiVun]

My thing is that I always test a guy's hands before calling his style "fake".

Those "fake" guys just might be hardened and battletested fighters. I know quite a few guys who could be called "fake" who can really fight.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Huang, I agree, and that's what I meant in my last sentence...however, what about if I knew very skilled fighters who had no martial training (and I do, no martial training AT ALL, didn't even try once, yet very good), who one day decided to open a kung fu school and came up with a completely made up style? Would the fact that they are good fighters make the style legit? NO.
I'm not saying their style is not legit, I'm not saying that what they teach is bad or useless, I'm just saying that on the sole examination of their page their style seems a FAKE CMA.
Maybe they can make you good fighters (and that's the most important thing after all), but whatever happens, the style they advertise seem quite fishy to me.
I will stand corrected and apologize if the style is legit and my judgement of it is wrong just because of my lack of knowledge...but I never heard of such a style...doesn't even ring a far bell...

[guohuen]

I'm still mulling over secret society and sashes. I have heard of village styles that include monkey and eagle, but not included with the five animals as part of a set.

[Brad]

lol, part of their basic set is called "Wind Breaker"

[Felipe Bido]

WTF??? Pics???

[HuangKaiVun]

I completely DISAGREE, Crimson Phoenix.

If a guy makes up his own "kung fu style" and can kick butt, I can't think of anything that makes it MORE legitimate.

All the styles in existence today came from somewhere. Some guy way back then was smart enough to codify fighting principles and put them together. Every "legitimate" style today was once "illegitimate", by your definition.

It's one thing if I say I'm practicing "Tan Tui" and then do "Taekyouku Shodan", but it's something else entirely when a guy makes up his style and doesn't assume anybody else's identity. The latter is exactly what the guys in the website did - and what I myself am doing in my style.

"Fake?" What's "fake?" If it kicks butt, how CAN it be fake? Maybe from a lineage standpoint yes, but a punch that connects is all too real. This school, from the looks of their forms, has stuff that really works in combat. To what extent? Well, that's why I'll pay them a respectful visit one day.

In kung fu, the only true legitimacy is EFFICACY - be it combat or forms or otherwise. Lineage is the LEAST of it.

[Crimson Phoenix]

you can kick butt with karate will it give you the right to call it kung fu? You can kick butt with capoeira, will it give you the right to call it kung fu? I wasn't bad at savate before trying any CMA...say I had just came up with some animal stuff, even without ever having learnt any animal style, just doing some mimics and postures and shi@t. But still I can kick butt for whatever reason (good boxing? natural fighter? whatever), would it make my phony animal style legit CMA? NO NO AND NO.
Don't mistake good kung fu and legit kung fu. You are right in saying that one day, any creator was necessarily traveling out of the accepted paths. But they didn't do it for money...they didn't come up with animal styles because they thought it was cool or that it would sell...they did it because in their minds, animal spirit was an asset to acquire while fighting. CMA are deeply rooted in the chinese mind, whether we like it or not. Theey gave all these poetic or metaphoric names to their styles because it is the way chinese mind works/worked, not because they thought it sounded cool, mysterious or that it would eventually sell (hell, who would have come with golden centipede style for these reasons anyway?).
I'm not speaking about that particular guy and school here, I'm not denying that they can very well be very good fighters, and that a respectful visit is deserved. If you are a good fighter and fighting instructor, FINE. But why invent phony stuffs? Commercial stuffs that smell like big $$? Secret societies? Animal styles? I'm sorry, but that sells...in the site, there's no lineage, nothing...what I don't like about it is that relent of commercialism, trying to appeal too much...higher forms restricted to dragon society members, and esoteric things like that...secret sells. I'm not saying that they are not good fighters or martial artists...but WHY the hell if you create your style, why not plainly saying: it's my style...I created it....I kick butt and can make you kick butt...instead of wrapping it up with some chinese esoteric and pseudo-philosophic stuff? It appears dishonest to me, it is mystification. If you are a good instructor, people will eventually flock to you, no need to attract them with fantasies of secret forms and hidden societies with a taste of China.
There's kung fu, and then there's good fighters. I'm sorry, but being a good fighter doesn't for me legitimate a style. Just like bad fighters in a style do not cast dishonor on it.
If he trained TCMA for years, legit TCMA styles, then by this mean acquired fighting skills and one day decide to build upon these roots to create a style, then it will be acceptable. If he is just a good fighter who done boxing/streetfights/whatever and 1-2 years of gong fu and invents something while at the same time sprinkling some good selling chinese mystery and fantasies then it will never be a legit CMA, whatever good at fighting he can be.

[Nick Lo]

*in snooty british accent*
BY GEORGE, I THINK HE'S GOT IT!

Quick, I better go before I soil my shorts.

[HuangKaiVun]

Yes, get on the toilet Nick Lo.

Peeing and crapping in your pants is a very bad idea, especially for somebody as old as you are.

Still want to fight me, boy?


Crimson Phoenix, you don't understand that the word "kung fu" means "excellence" in Chinese and NOT "Chinese martial art".

For your information, there is nothing wrong about doing kung fu for $$$. Many masters in history did it and were very successful at it. In fact, likely the guy you're learning kung fu from has the exact same motive!

Forget not that karate originated in Fujian province, from White Crane and Ngo Cho kun. It most DEFINITELY fits under the "kung fu" category, ESPECIALLY from a Chinese kung fu perspective and even has the same sets and moves. The Bubishi, the Bible of Japanese karate, is actually a CHINESE textbook of medicine and kung fu. "Shorinji Kempo" = "Shaolin Chuan Fa" in translation.

Or, how about General Yueh Fei calling his style "Eagle Claw"? If he didn't do it because he made up the style and it sounded cool, why did he do it? Would you call Yueh Fei a fake because he made up his own style and gave it a strange name.


"If he is just a good fighter who done boxing/streetfights/whatever and 1-2 years of gong fu and invents something while at the same time sprinkling some good selling chinese mystery and fantasies then it will never be a legit CMA, whatever good at fighting he can be."

- you just described BRUCE LEE!

[Fu-Pow]

Even if the dude that opened this school is a "natural," how could he teach you what he knows? He doesn't even know how he does it, he just does it. The cool thing about TMA's is that they are systematic progression to bring someone with no fighting skill up to the level of at least a decent fighter. This school might get you in shape, bring up your level of fitness, give you self-confidence, etc. but ultimately he has very few skills to teach and no systematic progression to teach them in. This is the problem I see with places like Shaolin-Do, Chung Moo Do, etc.

[Crimson Phoenix]

I'm using "kung fu" instead of guo shu or wushu or whatever because it's convenient and everyone will know at once what we are talking about...in other words, I'm aware it doesn't mean CMA.
Nothing wrong with doing CMA for money, bills have to be paid. You miss my point: I have a problem with guys using any chinese flavor to boost up the commercial attractiveness of what they do in a dishonest way. Sprinkling chinese concepts and names in a method created out of the roots of CMA is dishonest to me (once again, I'm not talking about the windfist school, I'm talking generally).
The stuff about karate...well, Okinawan indigenous methods existed in the island and got refined with the chinese influence, not created from them. As for all your infos on the bubishi and all, I'm aware of that too...I should then call karate a CMA then, if I take your word too tightly?

About Yue Fei, well, the motivations for calling the style eagle claw are clear, and reflect the functionality of the style...it's not dubbed, I guess, eagle claw because eagle is a cool animal, but rather because the creator wanted to emphasis the aspect of powerful grasps and holds, rushing on your opponent like the eagle on its prey, having its mindset..."horse horse tiger tiger" could mean, in chinese, something like "fishy, weird"...it sounds rather strange for a western mind...the same way, maybe some western guy could come up with "black sky dragon" as a name style because it sounds cool to him...if a chinese had done that in the past, it would be for far better reasons in regards to his style than just a cool name.
Uhhhh...you really believe Yue Fei created eagle claw? Anyway...

I just described Bruce Lee?? Your last comment shows that you miss my point entirely: B. Lee never claimed to have created a new CMA style...he emphasized everytime he could that it was HIS method, what HE came up with, after pondering his vision of combat...he stayed honest, he didn't try to pass it off as some sescret and ancestral chinese art to a public who, at that time, would have believed it without any problem.
He had an honest behavior with his JKD. He never tried to invent things like "This style is a secret art taught in Chinese secret societies for centuries, that no chinese master before me would have taught to westerner" and lies of that type.

[HuangKaiVun]

By the way Crimson Phoenix, thank you for making this a very INTERESTING topic.

I'm having fun with this, and I hope you are too.


You don't realize how LITTLE $70/month is in America.

That's not kung fu for profit. Not that there's anything wrong with inventing a kung fu style for $$$, but these guys are DEFINITELY not making a ton of money doing this stuff. You can make the argument that they're doing this for money if you wish, but simple American economics dictate that they're probably not making a much of a profit off this. They even SAY that they don't want to be corrupted by money (unlike me )

In short, anybody who thinks that these guys are out to make a quick buck are WRONG - and any sane American accountant will back me up on this.

Not only that, their secret society (not that they made any claims to secrecy) is a simple club membership that is granted by paying one's $60 - a pittance by US kung fu charging standards. That's far less hard to get into than Bruce Lee's "secret society", which consisted of a school in which rigid application standards were held and enforced. Let's not talk about modern day kung fu schools and their "advanced classes" - that's too much secrecy for you to handle.

I, as a trained kung fu AND karate man, DO call karate a "kung fu". It's not necessarily Chinese in nationality, but it has an extremely strong Chinese influence. Even so, I call karate "Japanese kung fu" just as I call capoeira "Brazilian kung fu" or savate "French kung fu". In both karate and savate's case, they have EXTREMELY strong roots to Chinese kung fu. And they all kick butt, which alone makes it legitimate "kung fu".

Karate's Bubishi features Chinese medicine, Chinese philosophy, Chinese people, Chinese quan, and Chinese authors. You mean to tell me that all of that ISN'T Chinese kung fu? If it isn't, where did it come from to begin with?

So Crimson Phoenix, what are you going to do about Wing Chun? That style was purportedly created by Tan Sau Ng of the Red Junks, not Wing Chun. Both Yip Man and Pan Nam are documented in saying that the Shaolin-Wing Chun-Ng Mui story is COMPLETELY MADE UP because it sounded cool ($$$). Are you going to now say that Wing Chun is fake or should change its name? At least the Wind Fist school didn't attach a fictional story to it's style, huh?

Bruce Lee never claimed to have created a new CMA? Then who created "Jeet Kune Do"? If you feel "sprinkling chinese concepts and names in a method created out of the roots of CMA is dishonest", then you must feel that Bruce Lee is the most dishonest CMArtist there is. After all, the "Jeet Kune" set is an Eagle Claw set. He stole that name and stuck it on his style!

Not only that, Bruce Lee was challenged in his own school by Wong Jak Man for daring to teach "secret kung fu" to Westerners. That's not a "lie" as you'd call it, it's a TRUTH. In the 60s, Chinese folks deliberately kept their kung fu secret from Westerners because they didn't want the white man turning on them with their learned Chinese techniques.

Thus you see that Bruce Lee's "honest behavior" consists of teaching a "secret art taught in Chinese secret societies for centuries, that no chinese master before me would have taught to westerner."

If you want to talk about cool names, then are you going to pick apart the "8 Drunken Immortals" style? That style imitates "immortals" that are "drunk". When's the last time YOU saw a drunken immortal, Crimson Phoenix?

I may not know about Yue Fei, but I'm not convinced YOU do either. Can you convince ME otherwise?


Does anybody here want to go to Tucson AZ (not the cushiest section of town, from what I've heard) and tell these guys in person that their style is fake?

My advice is, guys, DON'T DO IT. You'll get beaten up - BADLY.