What do you think?

[Walter Joyce]

Perhaps you might want to visit this website for another account of the mythical encounter between Wong Jack Man and Mr. Lee.

http://www.lakungfu.com/sifujackmanwong.html

And while you're at it, you might want to explain how something can appear "flowery" when it is static?

You don't make a lot of sense to me.

Btw, if you want to get rich quick, there are a lot better and faster ways than teaching martial arts.

There are at least two sides to everything.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Huang, I'm not particularly having fun...actually, I am beginning to think that discussing this topic for such a long time is quite useless...
No personal beef towards you, I want to state it, it's just that we are two stubborn beasts who obviouslt won't change their minds so...

I do not criticize these guys...their example made me think about the whole issue in general, I won't judge them on their sole website. I apologize if my opinion hurts feelings, but I'm sorry, it takes more than forming good fighters to be a legit CMA.

As for "french kung fu" and "brazilian kung fu", I agree, since we both are aware kung fu doesn't really mean chinese fighting arts...you're playing on words, or ignore on purpose that I stated using kung fu for convenience more than linguistic accuracy. You are right about savate and karate roots linking to kung fu...it's quite surprising for savate indeed, even though sometimes you really feel it...but I'd never call savate a CMA...I'd be flamed by both the french and the chinese LOL

Regarding advanced classes, well, there's a difference between fantasies of secrets and just not showing everything to everyone...
Also, about secret techniques, it's not necessarily a matter of chinese not wanting to expose their secrets to westerners...evene chinese were conned in believing fantasies during the boxer's rebellion...dishonesty is everywhere, or I should rather speak about mystification as it suits martial arts better.

Wing Chun, well, I guess it wasn't created out of nowhere? Surely, it was created with CMA roots, no? It wasn't created from Korean roots, or Swedish or Argentinian roots...
And regarding its creation, well, I keep Kang Ge Wu's work in mind. You should also check his work for Yue Fei's so called creation of eagle claw, maybe HE will convince you...

The chinese elements in JKD are easily explained: B. Lee was chinese, wasn't he? You can't take China out of a chinese, no matter how hard you try.

I personally never seen any immortal, neither sober nor drunk...and neither did the creators of this style...your point is rather...pointless...have you ever seen dragons? Iron palms? Long fists? cats doing cat stances? Need I continue? No, you haven't...it's all metaphorical/allegoric and/or deeply linked to the way chinese language and mind work...the guy who came up with 8 drunken immortals obviously thought his kung fu ressembled the behaviors of the famous immortals...

As for going to Tucson and getting beat up...
If they have a fake style history (disclaimer: nothing on the webpage enables to say it, it's just an example) and I go and tell them "Mr, your style looks good, but it your history is fake" and they beat my ass up good...will it make their history magically legit? No...
Will it mean my own style is useless? Neither...

[Nick Lo]

huang/wong/wrong

I wasn't talking about excrement, but I guess any sexual connotation automatically implies defecation to you, huh golden shower boy?

I got better things to do than to prove my machismo over the net, or fly thousands of miles for bragging rights.

Although I do find it interesting that you put these frauds automatically above a legitimately trained guy who's paid his dues.

Must imply your true inner feelings about traditional ma huh?

And maybe shed some light on why you've decided to wh0re your non- existent, non- earned skills out for money right?

And of course the fact that these frauds aren't making much money justifies everything, right?

Let's just take a second to review:

1. They charge $70 a month with a club fee of $60...

2. Fraud schools work better at marketing and babying along cash cow students. As a result their enrollment tends to be about double normal.

4. Your average legit school usually enrolls anywhere from 10 to 30 people. For the sake of argument, let's put these guys at 40.

5. (40 x 70 = 2,800) + (at least 40 x 60 club fee = 2,400)... that's 36,000 years for being unqualified labor.

6. I'd be pretty mad at someone making that much off of me without proper training... imagine a doctor making 36k a year without a license, arbitrarily operating and treating as it suited him?


Plus, your analogy of bruce was f*cked.

For starters he didn't want JKD to be a style, let alone a style of kung fu, which is why he stopped calling it jun fan gung fu.

And if you knew anything about him and the blood that ran through his veins, you'd know another reason he wouldn't wanna be part of the trad kung fu establishment.


On TOP of that, you totally screwed up about Wong Jack Man. It was BRUCE who was mouthing off that he could beat anyone in San Fran, WJM just responded. Not to mention the fact that WJM'd already had occidental students by then.

You can't even get the facts straight for one of your heroes; I can imagine what your transmission of kung fu is like.

Of course I'm disregarding your earlier statement that Bruce wasn't any "big thing", saying other chinese (implying you) could do the same stuff easy.

Funny how you flip flop.... bash a guy for your own self agrandizement and then proceed to present him as some shining example in order to justify your own weak argument. Lame....


Yeah, and then you bring up Okinawans. The Okinawans taught the Japanese, and the teachings were modified to fit Japanese mentality and medical science. This led to what eventually became mainstream japanese karate.

Yeah, some old Okinawan senseis practise a closer version to what their ancestors were taught, but some of the transmission was lost; or never picked up in the first place.

There are certain differences in practise that cannot be reconciled.


The argument is more about "who has the right to claim that they are a traditional martial art".
We're just syaing that it's NOT the guys who make stuff up; then insert a bunch of mysticism and unrelated, offbase theory; and call it tcma. That is, we are bashing people who pretend to be something they are not. *nudge nudge*


And one last thing....
kung fu translates skill and time spent...
In essence it's an ability you gain from busting yer a$$ consistently...

In this sense, it's being used in place of "traditional chinese martial arts" because that's what the general public recognizes it as, even in the chinese language.

If you're going to criticize his ability to translate it, at least do a half decent job yourself.


Keep diggin there Huang, you haven't hit six feet yet.



Crimson

Funny how he switches the topic to fighting me anytime the conversation gets heavy.

He must get stressed out from the attacks, and start dreaming of getting hot n sweaty with me to relieve that stress.

I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it to waste time trying to talk logic to someone who learns a little from videos, makes up some elaborate, fraudulant story, and preys on innocent newbies for money and to make himself feel good. Taking small man's complex to an extreme.

[HuangKaiVun]

If you come to Arizona, Nick Lo, you'll have TWO schools to beat down - this one and my own.

I want to see your "legitimate" fu in action against my "fraud" fu.

[Nick Lo]

I never said I had any kung fu with which to speak as an authority from....but then neither do you... and that's my whole point...

So now your h0m0er0tic fantasies have me s1utting around all over the state of Arizona?

Getting all hot and sweaty with 2 schools now instead of just you?

Man you got some weird wet dreams.

[HuangKaiVun]

Wet - as in bloody.

I'm going out to Hawaii to fight you.


Crimson Phoenix, I think you simply need to TRAIN kung fu.

You'll see that just because you can't handle something doesn't mean that it doesn't work or isn't "kung fu".

You'll also learn that the literal translation of "kung fu" does mean "Chinese martial art". It simply means "excellence".

[Crimson Phoenix]

Kung fu cha does mean the fighting art of the teapot then?
I'm sorry, all my chinese teachers (be they in martial arts or tea) told me that kung fu doesn't mean specifically chinese martial arts. Go argue with them, and tell them they don't know Chinese.

I think being heated by Nick's comments made you lose 1) courtesy and 2) sense.
I didn't attack you or criticize you, we were having a discussion so far, you don't know me, you don't know a shi@t about how I train and fight, and yet you tell me without any good reason that I need to TRAIN kung fu.
Do you get into personal attacks everytime you can't handle a diverging opinion?
Somehow I feel that it's easy to talk wude, it's harder to be wude.

I quote you: "You'll see that just because you can't handle something doesn't mean that it doesn't work or isn't "kung fu". Please explain me what the hell it has to do with the present topic? What can't I handle? And even better, what do you base this rather intriguing and out-of-nowhere comment on?

Huang, I really hope that Nick got on your mind and that's why you entered blind defense mode.
If not, well...you lost all credibility as a poster to me. Not that you should care...but I personally never like it when someone I had respect for falls in such a disgrace

[HuangKaiVun]

No, you are right Crimson Phoenix.

I mistyped the "doesn't" as "does.

I stand corrected. Thanks for reminding me.


However, I pointed out that you don't know your kung fu because you cannot handle the fact that a style that kicks butt IS kung fu.

Any REAL fighter who's been in a scrape knows that if a style works, it is legitimate "kung fu" 100%. And that's what this discussion is all about.

Those techniques that you do - likely other guys do them too. In fact, this school does a lot of the same stuff I do. I've USED that stuff in combat, and I will again.

Respect those who DO kung fu, Crimson Phoenix. Just because you think it's fake doesn't mean that it isn't "legitimate".

As I said, test their hands. You'll find out - the hard way.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Huang, first, thanks for the return to a good discussion.
It doesn't matter if you think I don't know my kung fu or not...it is just ironic that you make the same mistake you are attacking me for: judging without touching hands. Besides, I won't change the POV I exposed lenghtly here, legitimacy is more and less than combat at the same time. As sure as lineage legitimacy is not a sure cause of combat efficiency, to me similarly combat efficiency isn't a sure cause of "historical" legitimacy...I won't change my mind on that, none of us two will...I agree with you that technically any good fighting art is good kung fu. But not necessarily legit TCMA. The same way all squares are rectangle but not all rectangles are squares, CMA are all fighting arts (fighting kung fu), but not all fighting kung fu are CMA. It's just a linguistic thing, since we now both agree that as you said, one meaning of kung fu is excellence (in any field) and not precisely in the field of combat. Then, still linguistically-wise a fighting kung fu can be legitimate without having any links with CMA, I agree, and in this case the legitimacy of a fighting kung fu is directly inherited from fighting efficiency. It seems we both argued for hours because I take kung fu as the convenient way to say CMA in particular, whether you (more linguistically accurately, I acknowledge) use kung fu for "high skills gained through time and efforts".

Still, I do have the impression that you think I directly judge the school on the website as bad, and it bothers you. Soooo...May I quote nearly all my posts so far?
Here I go:

"I'm not speaking about that particular guy and school here, I'm not denying that they can very well be very good fighters, and that a respectful visit is deserved"

"I do not criticize these guys...their example made me think about the whole issue in general, I won't judge them on their sole website"

And my very first reply to this topic: "But well, we can't and shouldn't judge just from a website..."

And there are others...When I said fake, I always said it SEEMS fake (there's a big difference with it IS fake) on the sole examination of their website. I quote yet another of my post: "I'm not saying their style is not legit, I'm not saying that what they teach is bad or useless, I'm just saying that on the sole examination of their page their style seems a FAKE CMA".

And I won't back up from this: their style seems made up when you judge the page. Period, I'm not saying anything more, neither less...I even said, and I state it again, that if someone tells me "you're a ****, Phoenix, Wind fist was created by that man in the x century, who studied under that man, who learnt this other style from x" etc... I will apologize. But judging by the webpage only, it just seems windfist was created not too long ago by someone who made up his own style from the MA he learnt.

Okie, time for confessions, Huang...you seem to get very personal when we speak about that school...you are not the "white-knight-saving-every-princess-from-the-bad-dragon" type usually...how come on this particular issue you get so involved, whereas countless other schools were bashed 1000000 times harder without you even raising an eyebrow? Do you personally know the guy? Or maybe it's where you come from? Or is it your school? just very curious...

As for my capacities/credentials/experience as a fighter, you know none of it. You don't know who can kick my ass and how, and who won't and why.
So why bother commenting on it?
You seem very fond of speaking about REAL fighters...as one, you must know that you can't evaluate a guy's experience of combat by what he says or the impression he gives you...especially on a public net forum...don't you?

[Dwhomp]

He's got big balls...

She's got big balls...

They've got big balls....

But we have the biggest.....balls of them all!

[Kristoffer]

Oh Shaddap! Who cares what's fake god ****it!? Shut the **** up *****es!

[Brad]

lol @ Kristoffer

[CD Lee]

Yeah...what he said!!!!!!!!!!!

I was going to weigh in on this, but it looks like this turned into one of those little fights my 4 and 6 yr. old kids are having in the other room. Think I'll wait for calm water.

[pitbull]

hello...

im saddened by the fact that kung fu is being commercialized so much...

PS: kung fu...person glorified through way of skill/actions/work...u can call a successful merchant kung fu

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

My former long time mentor, G'master Chan Pui, says Gung Fu means "hard work".. i think we can safely assume he is Chinese, and he practices "hard work", and expects it from his students..

As for the the rest of this, it is sadly comical..

Be well..