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Thread: Do you spar with your internal art?

  1. #16
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    Greetings..

    1) At the more advanced levels we free-spar, focusing on technique and chin na applications.. Most of our good san shou fighters credit their prowess to their Tai Chi training.. Understanding technique is good, understanding the energy that makes it work is better..

    2) Both, progressively.. according to ability..

    3) We express "Jin" only enough to demonstrate its application..

    4) Free-spar once a week.. tui shou each class.. chin na drills each class.

    5) Students are introduced to sensitivity drills after they demonstrate a working knowledge of body mechanics.. controlled sparring after completing form..free-sparring when i decide they are ready and can control themselves..

    6) Enough force to demonstrate that the technique works but not so much as to damage classmates..

    Forms are a good foundation, application is what forms "point" to.. Dynamic interaction is what the Tai Chi symbol represents, should the Art be anything less?..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  2. #17
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    Gazza I agree with you 100% that martial arts must be martial.

    But there is one thing that has not been brought up. IF one reaches a good level in internal, let's look at Hsing-I's POW!-quan for an example.

    How many of these can you or your class mates take? The goal is not to exchange back and forth, but to hit, control and then take their head off with a BIG powerful blow that has your entire weight behing it (I'm 210lbs). Pushing with the foot, turning the hip, using the upper back, shoulder and elbow for power and the upper arm for "bat speed."

    If you can take two of these to the head, forget Taichi, go into pro boxing or just sign up for the UFC right now. Don't delay. Get yourself on the cover of every martial magazine.

    My point?

    I don't want this to sound like a "my art is too deadly to spar" with. More like, your art should be too deadly to spar with and don't even use it to fight, just to beat the $hit out of someone. It shouldn't be sparring. Are you telling me you are training to last a few rounds? To zig in and zag out and bob and weave and wait for the bell? Or are you coming out looking to snap someone's head off their shoulder?

    So the question should be, Who is signing up to take this sort of beating on a weekly basis?

    I view class as the opportunity to gain knowledge from the teacher, train the principles with your fellow training brothers and sisters and try to make the connections and learn and go deeper.

    I used to think like you. But now I see that it is dangerous to engage in controlled combat, where you are programming your body to "take it easy" on the other schoolmate.

    There are always outsiders who want to play. In my area their are tons of guys who swear by Wing Chun and Hung Gar and we have a good time.

    If you really want to test it out, that's what the west side between 42nd and 56th street are for. Sat. night after hours, you are almost guaranteed a test.

    But I do understand your point. I came from a heavy fighting focused S. Mantis envirnment. And when I first went internal all I wanted to do was fight. But I see what I was doing before was just joking around. I'd kick the $hit out of the fighter I was 2 years ago -- no doubt about it -- but I'm still not "internal".

    Principles, power. A fighter is a fighter inside already. Train the weapons, the delievery of them.
    Last edited by Ray Pina; 09-09-2002 at 08:19 AM.

  3. #18
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    Evolution Fist,

    You make some good points about training so that you don't NEED a second strike, even if you deliver one (or twelve) anyway. And also about how unrealistic it is to train to "last a few rounds" rather than to simply take out the opponent.

    Where I think you're having a misunderstanding here is in drawing the conclusion that this is how Gary trains his students and that this is what he means by sparring. Perhaps Gary would have been wiser to choose a different term in his original post, given that the term "sparring" CAN mean different things to different people but that it usually has a fairly standardized connotation to it.

    From my experience with him, I can assure you that Gary definitely does NOT teach his students to "ring fight", nor that he is implying that such training ought to be included in neijia. He explained his own approach himself fairly clearly in a later post in this thread.

    My own view on this matter, born of experience, is that working solely for the ability to deliver maximum power with optimal mechanics, sung, jing, etc. will NOT in any way provide sufficient training to survive a real life-or-death street encounter. Needless to say, such training IS essential....it is, however, not SUFFICIENT.

    Since Gary is USAF, let me liken it to an Air Force analogy. The US spends billions each year to ensure that we have the latest high-tech fighter jets and the most highly-trained combat pilots in the world. We make sure that each fighter jet is capable of delivering huge amounts of damage to the enemy all by itself. However, for every pilot, there are around 20 other personnel providing support for his/her strike missions. Without absolute excellence in the support they provide, even the most state-of-the-art jet and most highly trained pilot are slightly more than useless in combat and might as well just sit there on the tarmac.

    Being able to execute massive damage with each and every blow in a fight is essential. However, without the other skills that do not, I repeat, DO NOT come from mechanics development practice, you will very likely be unable to "acquire the target" in a real fight against a poorer trained but experienced opponent in the street. Think otherwise? Then try the following: 1) go find someone with good old-fashioned boxing and wrestling experience who's also had streetfighting experience. 2) **** him off. 3) Now try landing your most massive Beng Quan strike to 'snap his head off his shoulder' before he KTFO's you or takes you down for a good old-fashioned ground and pound.

    Without MUCH more than just strike execution training, you won't be able to deliver jack sh*t. Those that have been there know there's a helluva lot more to fighting than just being able to hit powerfully.

    Anyhow, I'm not assuming that this is some kind of newsflash to you, it's just a reminder to keep all priorities in view and not get tunnel vision on any single one.
    "Bagua can look pretty, especially when you wave your hands around alot and walk really fast and bounce back and forth like a goof." -- Braden

  4. #19
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    Chris, I couldn't agree more with you. Just that I think a lot of people, and I can honestly say I am the most guilty of this, put the cart before the horse when it comes to internal or MA in general.

    I see tons of martial artist who claim to be of a high level, and I watch them fight and it looks like kick boxing. Of course one has to throw down, this is martial arts here, but where is the internal? Who has internal?

    Fight? Yes. But not fight with slingshots for 5 years and think you are ready to do battle with someone who purchased an AK 47 a month ago.

    I honestly thought that by the time some one started in internal, they had already completed at least one style. By this time, fighting is like going for a surf session. It's no fun unless the waves are big and challenging.

    My aim is to be able to take on the biggest and the baddest of them. So my focus has changed recently to investing in wealth (chi) and technology (good technique).

    It's a double edged sword thought, and you're right. I know tons of theorists who do know a lot, but hit them...

    But, I also know guys who beat the hell out of themselves but never improve. They have plataued investing in pure ability which have ceilings (speed, power, size).

    Balance.

  5. #20
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    The original post said "Schools" that train "Nei Jia".

    Because of that, I was talking about schools that specialized in teaching specific Nei Jia principles - not simply a modernized Tai Chi set devoid of application or lineage.

    A TRUE Nei Jia lineage holder understands that there are specific training regimes and a style of moving that is characteristic of that method. I'm not saying that gazza99 ISN'T a legitimate lineage holder; what I'm saying is that a person can't just be lumped under "Nei Jia" simply because he practices Taijiquan for exercise show.

    For example, the Nei Jia styles often feature that baguazhang-like circle walk. This is an integral part of their combat training. Ba Gua has it, my Seng Men style has it, Tzuranmen has it, and so do Hsing I and Tai Chi in the older lineages. A true "Nei Jia" guy can be detected via his combat stances and movement.

    Two man training via push hands or rou shou is also another trait of the Nei Jia styles. Resistance training is a big deal to the Nei Jia styles, which is why they feature all sorts of two man drills and training sets and even equipment.

    Of the true "Nei Jia" schools I've seen, all of them feature such training. To be a true "Nei Jia" practitioner is to do drills and sets that build toward freeflow combat proficiency. Thus far, I have yet to see a SCHOOL of Taijiquan or any other Nei Jia art that doesn't feature that type of training.

    There's a huge difference between the guy who learned a Taijiquan set for demonstration purposes and the guy who uses his Taijiquan set in accordance with Nei Jia principles.

  6. #21
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    huang

    And you learned from the video professor, Jiang Jian Ye? The man who's produced videos on every modern compulsory form wushu-taiji you name it...

    And then you comment on lineage, throwing in a less than subtle diss to modern taiji?

    And you follow that with a comment on how you know what a taiji man's combat stances look like?


    Good GAWD boy... PLEASE lay off the drugs!!!
    This is like shooting fish in a barrel....


    wonder how soon before you try switch the topic to beating my ass... as if my ass was something you wanted desperately to touch.....

  7. #22
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    I'll switch the topic to YOUR beating my ass.

    Who here wants to see Nick Lo's Taijiquan against MINE?

  8. #23
    Combat stances??? Oh dear....

  9. #24
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    Who here wants to see Nick Lo's Taijiquan against MINE?
    Only if it doesn't cost me anything

  10. #25
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    Brad

    Nah, he'd probly charge 19.95 at the door...

    Of course, it's justified because he isn't making much money at it...

    Not that I ever even studied taiji anyway...

    Oh, I guess I could be like him: see a few videos, read a few forums, listen to a few taiji players talk, bank on my chinese heritage, and play like I know it...

    but then i'd probly have to kill myself...
    especially if I started believing my own press...

  11. #26
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    Yes, kill yourself.

    It'll save you from having to face me

    Better yet, let's videotape you and me fighting and air it on the Internet.

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