In Park's defense

[Ray Pina]

Actually, a picture can tell a lot soemtimes. In this magazine alone, sometime son the Burt's offerings or soemthing, many times the photo is displaying a technique where Burt is hitting someone witha stick, but the trained eye can see that his attacker, if really attacking, could just as well reach him. Also, a sharper eye will note he's holding the stick a good three inches up from the but. An inch is a mile with a weapon.

Other examples, why do some many Ba Gua articles have pictures where the guy has his palms all wrong? Wouldn't he use the best picture for a published article? Why is the back palm on the first palm change held so low? It doesn't collapse the lung for the health benefit, and its certainly doing $hit for fighting down there? So why?

With Taiji, why is the man's knee always out past the heel? There's no pulling angle from there.

So, sometimes a pictures says a lot. I usually use them to judge their understanding of the principles because that's the point of the article. I'm hoping they would take care to put forth what they consider to be right.

As for this web site or that school or this guy or that guy, WHO CARES? I don't. The more fakes the better.

[HuangKaiVun]

Walter Joyce, go touch hands with Park.

You'll see if I'm right or wrong.

[blacktaoist]

I don't mind intelligently discussing Park's Bagua.

For one I myself would love to touch hands (freefight) with Park. I love to see if he is good as many of you claim. I see nothing wrong in getting my ass kick by a true Ba Gua master, if he is truly that.

I have a question? If Park system is so good, then why dones he not have any fighters that can utilize his method. After all you guys claim Park has students all over the world. Are you guys going to tell me not one of Park top students can come to the all Ba Gua Zhang tournament and dispaly their fighting skills from Park system.

Other point I like to make, anyone can look good in photos, or do Fa jing drills and look like that have some real skill. But the bottom line is can that person apply what they learned in a real fight or sparring situation. And I'm sorry to say many people that practice Ba Gua Zhang can't.

Now lets talk about Parks fundementals in his book and video. So you guys think thats good Ba Gua Zhang fundementals. Ok fine. But I have another question?

when is the cultivating of the centerpoint practice in Park method. I have seen both of Parks videos, and he gives no references to this kind of training. (I-Chuan static Postures) And static posture training is in all three of the internal. BASIC."

2. Where is the Ba Gua Zhang Kun Shou (tui Shou push hands and push legs) training in Park method? BASIC."

3. Ba Gua Zhang Wai Dan method, level one. Most all Ba Gua Zhang styles have a fundemental Wai Dan open palm set to develop a student power for the first year of training. BASIC."

These are just a few things I don't see in Park system. And the above are basic methods in most traditional styles of Ba Gua Zhang.

[count]

I for one, wasn't really commenting on Park in more than in a broad and general way. I can't tell enough by looking at pictures and I have not met him or anyone who has spent time with him. So I have no opinion of his system. I only said he had a "systemized approach".

As far as the tapes, in my opinion, if anyone here thought you could learn from them, I doubt you could learn from any tapes without the benefit of the teacher, and to only have access to the teacher once or twice a year would make progressing quite slow. But if you had to learn this way, it would be good to keep it simple and focus on basics. Personally Ford and others, I make a distinction between what are basics and what are fundamentals and they are not always the same and sometimes need to be presented at different levels.

If you did study with Park and had to leave, it would be great to have a video record like these to fall back on and I'm sure you would have other methods of cataloging your system that might not fit on a couple of vhs's. If you study from someone else or don't study at all, I doubt the tape would be of much benefit to you at all.

jafc,
Welcome to the discussion's. Even though you are just a rookie, you are doing a fine job as forum police. Keep up the good work.

[blacktaoist]

Count

I didn't ask you your opinion or can careless on what you was commenting on Park in more than in a broad and general way.

First of all, my question is not for you. My question is for Park students or people that have train with Park. Anyone reading my post can see that, So whats the point of your post to me.

Yo I'm not in the move for your games. If I'm not talking to you, you need to mind yours.

[Ky-Fi]

Yeah, Count---you think just because you're a member on this forum that that gives you the right to make comments and take part in the discussions here?

[count]

LOL! That's true Ky-Fi, what was I thinking, and Taoist, my post wasn't specifically for you either. But if my opinions bother you so much, you might try the ignore feature.

[jafc]

BT,
I take it from your response to count that you are talking to me.

I have only begun to research bagua and I am coming at this from an external style perspective (Wado-ryu & Shaolin). Over the last five years, I have studied Yang Tai Chi. I do not claim expertise.

1. I have looked at the rich history between BT's group and Park's group on this and other posts. With all the bad blood between the two groups, I am not surprised by the lack of representation of Park's system at the Bagua tourney.

2. Photos - bad photos say something, good photos say little. Still, I trust neither and would go see for myself.

3. I have read the first book by Park & Miller. There seems to reference to static posture training toward the end. There are not many pictures but it leads me to believe that it is covered in the method. (I have not seen the video).

4.Push hands is absent in this first volume. I am halfway through the second and there is still no mention of it. Absense of push hands would be a bad thing. Trying to give the authors the benefit of the doubt, the book does not claim to cover every aspect of training. In fact, it seems focused on training that can be done without a partner (with a few two person applications sprinkled in.) I do not know whether this means the method does not do push hands or simply did not include it in the book. (BT, I realize you had experience with students who said they did not do push hands - not a good thing.) Does anyone else outside of BT's circle know if the system includes push hands?

5. Both books include a number of palm training sets. They look like power is taught after the student has started to develop proper alignment. Would these not fit the bill for introductory palm training?

I agree with Count, the approach taken in the book is VERY systematic and it seems to be written from a "if you are looking to get started" perspective. I would not want to try to learn from a book or video without frequent contact with a person. Otherwise, you could learn brain surgery by correspondence.

Bottom line is I don't think I can dismiss this method without more investigation and personal experience. Count has weighed in - he has not tried the methods out or met anyone who has.
BT - let me know what you think about points #3 & #5. I know where you stand with regard to the tourney, push hands and the method in general. No need to repeat yourself
Anyone else?

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't need to know anything about Park's training techniques to SEE that Park knows his bagua and can apply it.

The details of what one does in his training really don't matter to me.

All I care about is whether a guy can use his bagua or not - and Park CAN.

[blacktaoist]

Count:But if my opinions bother you so much, you might try the ignore feature.

Count nothing you say or do , can bother me in anyway. Like I told you before, I know what tme it is with you. And I still stand by my veiwpoints about you. If you was not talking to me, then fine. Move on.

. I have looked at the rich history between BT's group and Park's group on this and other posts. With all the bad blood between the two groups, I am not surprised by the lack of representation of Park's system at the Bagua tourney.

First of all, there is no history between me ar Park Group. For one I only post statements conforming to fact and truth of the few encountering experience I had with his people. So I know first hand what Park Ba Gua Zhang system is like.

5. Both books include a number of palm training sets. They look like power is taught after the student has started to develop proper alignment. Would these not fit the bill for introductory palm training?

In traditional Ba Gua Zhang you must first learn how to develop your centerpoint by first practicing standing meditation. Real Ba Gua Zhang basic palm training, consisted of holding eight postures for a minimum of five minutes -a total of 40 minutes standing meditation. This is the true way of developing Ba Gua Zhang power. You must first have correct alignment and posture before you do them kind of external palm drills. And yes they are EXTERNAL palm drills on Park tape.

But to tell you the truth the kind palm drills park have in his method are irrelevant, if you are practicing real Ba Gua Zhang neijiaquan power methods.

just my veiwpoint from my own experience in training in Ba Gua Zhang. My opinion have nothing to do with bad blood with Park. My statement is dealing with the truth about Ba Gua Zhang training.

[count]

Originally posted by jafc
I agree with Count, the approach taken in the book is VERY systematic and it seems to be written from a "if you are looking to get started" perspective. I would not want to try to learn from a book or video without frequent contact with a person. Otherwise, you could learn brain surgery by correspondence.

You aren't by any chance, offering such correspondence courses, are you? I hope that's not the way you learned it.

I take it you are attempting to learn bagua from this system? May I ask, how often do you get hands on with Park or one of his certified instructors? OR have you had the opportunity yet? If not, is that your intention and did you get interested through the books and tapes?

[jafc]

Count -
4 years medical school.
7 years residency working about 110 hours per week
one 8 hour written test
one 2 day oral exam.
about 3 thousand operations

AND you too can become a neurosurgeon
The money is good but the hours still s%^&

BT
thank you for your response to #5. Premature focus on external technique would be a huge drawback. I guess I'm going to have to check it out for myself. Good luck with the upcoming tourney.

[Dwhomp]

Why does everyone care so much about Park's Bagua?

If you like it, go with it.

If you dont, then dont.

Seems a bit open and shut to me...

[Waidan]

We'll have none of that level-headed thinking, mistar. Is Park Fraud or God? Weigh in immediately, or face the full fury of the casual weekend posters.

[kyle]

jafc

"I guess i'm going to have to check it out by myself"


Wise words,grasshoper,wise words indeed.

From my experience,Master Park teaches a complete Pa Kua system,very sistematic ,lots of detail,very deep,however is not for everybody or the only method available,just a different road to help you gain skill,if it fits your body,character and expectations,take it,otherwise try another road.

enjoy your journey.