Which Style Tai Chi Chaun

[Paul Eugene]

ok, i practice wu style. let me see if i can explain. Also, if my explanation is not good enough then go to lee white's leapord kung fu schools, or johnny kwong ming lee's website. They have a detailed explanation of the posture which i will try to summarize.

Basically, as far as I know, it was wu chien chuan who made changes to the wu style and not his father chuan yao. Those changes were mainly to take out repetetive movements and jumps to make the form smooth and continuous. Also, Yang and Wu styles were not even distinguished separately until someone from the outside of the martial arts community did so, according to what I've read.

Anyway, you cocyx is always tucked in wu style just as in other tai chi styles and with this tucking you are rooted in the LEAN. If you look at a good stytlist in this lean which is just a bow stance you will see that there is a straight line from the top of the practicioner's head to the heel of his foot. The tail bone is tucked and the practioner is rooted. I believe that the classics mean that you should not lean such that you are off balance or not in equilibrium but central equilibrium is a characteristic of the wu style.

paul

[gazza99]

Thanks paul, I was reading about Wu style on a site, and apparently some styles lean more than others? I read something about the Beijing style being more upright?

Anyhow I have found a clip of someone doing a Wu form, for the most part his potures are upright, however if you watch for a min or two you will see him bend over almost completley at the waist (like he is about to touch his toes) as he rotates, then does brush knee I believe...Could you explain this bending to me? This is the leaning I was remembering I saw before.

You have to scroll down about halfway then click the play button on the player window.

Wu form



Thanks for the info!!

Gary

[Paul Eugene]

dude, first let me say that although i recognize what this guy is doing he does not do the form the way we do it. his movements are alot bigger, more expansive. the use of the waist is much more obvious with his form. our form is much tighter, the circles are smaller and in general we lean alot more in our bow stance. he's really upright. I know you are supposed to be really flowing but i would say that our movements are much more concentrated than this. the lean before the brush knee is the wu style's version of "white crane spreads its wings." in the application i've seen on video, if someone grabs you from behind then the idea is to lean forward and sort of turn as you bend to come up behind the grasping arm. i'll have to look at it and try it myself. man, i'm still surprised at how different his form looks. i only have my school as a frame of reference for how wu style is done.

by the way, even as you lean you are still supposed to stay balanced, you're not supposed to go so far over that someone could pull your arm or push you from behind and have you fall over.

[wufupaul]

Sorry, double post.

[wufupaul]

I hope the diagram I sent you will help you to see why Wu stylists use the plow oxen stance. People that don't study the style always say that the postures aren't in line with the classics, or that some of the postures are double weighted. So, since you don't study the style, I'll try to explain some of the misconceptions that you have.

In case you didn't know, Wu style was developed from the Yang small frame which Wu Quan Yu learned from Yang Lu Chan, and Yang Ban Hao. Up until the early 20th century, they were known as the same style. There are fast forms, a san shou form, many similarities still today to yang small frame.

"Body Central and upright-the body should be straight and erect, not LEANING to any side" (fundamental key points) (my emphasis by using caps on "leaning"

The body is erect, especially when there is incoming force. The only time that the body leans forward, is when there is a discharge of energy forward. It's not really a lean; the body naturally aligns itself in that position when moving, striking, or pushing forward; it is a rooted posture. Wu stylists don't lean forward and wait for you to attack. If the point comes in combat when you move back or are retreating, a good Wu stylist will send you flying backwards with a strike or push from that position.

"The upright body must be stable and comfortable
to be able to sustain an attack from any of the eight directions"

The body is stable and comfortable. Again, Wu stylists don't stand in a "double weighted" stance or lean forward waiting for an attack.

"When the tailbone is centered and straight,
the shen [spirit of vitality] goes through to the headtop"

Wu stylists always keep the tailbone tucked, and there is a straight line from the crown to the coccyx. When the plow oxen stance is applied, there is a line from the crown to the heel, it's very effective for keeping the ground path and transferring power. So, in that one posture, the best mechanical posture is a straight line from the crown to the heel, at least in Wu style.

"The Wu style was started by Wu Quan-you, who learned from Yang Ban-hou, so according to you his own teacher did not approve of his modifications and creation of the Wu style itself. I just fail to see how breaking what everyone else in the world of taijiquan knows as basic posture is an improvment?"

Maybe Wu just found something that worked better, Honestly, I could really care less about the classics. If it works, it works. I studied Wu style because I liked the content. If you have the chance to talk to a good Wu tai chi teacher, they can talk classics with you, I won't spend alot of time on them.

"it was in no way a good martial technique, perhaps a good stretch?"

I'm pretty sure that the posture you're referring to in the video is "White crane opens it's wings." Ever seen a hip toss? Or a deflection down then poke them in the armpit? Or grab the ankle and push on the hip? Those are just some of the apps. for the posture. That one isn't really a lean or a stretch, either. The body weight moves forward, there is no stress on the back. When rising up, the weight is on the left foot, maintaining the ground path, so it may look kind of awkward, but is a rooted martial technique.


"I have also been told that the mechanical problems in the Wu style could have been due to either one of the old masters having a crook hip, or it being taught wrong to them on purpose becuase they were Manchurian or something like that?"

Mechanical problems? A better term would be mechanical differences, or, in the opinion of some, mechanical advantages. You know, I heard that the reason you small frame yang stylists shake so much when doing fa-jing moves is because Yang Shao Hao was epileptic, and everyone just copied him doing his tai chi. Pretty funny story, eh? I've never seen any documented evidence of any Wu style master having a crooked hip, it's just another urban legend. As far as learning a different form because they were Manchurian? That is a theory, but, not much evidence behind that theory. The small frame of Yang tai chi was supposedly developed for the bodyguards and members of the Imperial court. The restrictive clothing that was worn inspired Yang Luchan to develop a smaller frame, or style that didn't need much as much room to generate power. Basically, the Imperial members just learned a different form because of the restrictive clothing, Yang later had people from the Imperial guard learn from him outside of the courts, but the movements were different, because they had more room to move in their clothes. That's one theory, anyways.

Anyways, hope I answered some questions. Oh, Rory..who was the 3rd generation Wu master you learned from in Shanghai? I'm not aware of any 3rd generation masters that are still alive. Most lineage charts I've seen for Wu start with Quan Yu. For example, Wu Quan Yu, to Wu Chien Chuan, to Ma Yeuh Liang. Ma Yeuh Liang was a 3rd generation master. Are you starting at Wu Chien Chuan? Maybe that's it.

Oh, here are some good pics of Wu Chien Chuan. http://www.glink.net.hk/~taichi/wujg_p.html Note the nice ground path in the pics,

[gazza99]

Thanks Wufupaul and Paul for the explinations!!

I still dont really see how the version of white crane spreads wings is a stable martial technique even with wufu's descriptions, I was taught it once in one of the few Wu style classes I had. But perhaps ill have to see or feel the martial application to make me a believer

As to the overall posture and form I agree that compact is good, especially for practical use, but enlarging it in the beggining, and ever so often to magnify and find the errors is helpfull to me.
I can see how the Wu postures could be stable, more so now that I really look at it, and ignore the white crane spreads wings .

But im still trying to see those leaning postures with the head "suspended from a string" Its just hard to see how that could be anything but perpendicular to the ground, but that could be own bias and interpretation? Nonetheless my questions have been answered, thanks!

Regards,
Gary

[Walter Joyce]

If this post covers material already discussed in re Wu style, just ignore it.

I studied Wu for about 2 years. I was taught similarly about the straightness of the spine from the crown point to the heel, Also, I was taught that when in this [position, if you bring your hips forward, shifting to an erect posture, it icreases the leverage used to uproot your opponent.

I don't think I saw this point being raised.

Having switched to Yang, I think it is easy to see how Wu was developed from the Yang, but I was taught that Wu places more of an emphasis directly on the four internal energies (peng, ji, liu, ahn), and in using the meridians as "markers" for the positioning of the limbs, and for manipulating the energy as your hands transition from one posture to the next.

[Walter Joyce]

My apologies Mr. Dude. I'll read more carefully next time, despite the fact that my eyes glaze over at times...

[wufupaul]

Thanks for posting the article, it was interesting. I saw those pics of Wu Chien Chuan and I never bothered to ask my teacher(Johnny Lee) why his face was looking away, haha. Now that I notice, his face is looking right at the camera instead of where the intent should be in several of them.

[Scotorabie]

Well,

As a student of psychology, I know that what people like is what they are exposed to most often. Therefore, the question of what style you like is irrelevant, since it is simply a manifestation of exposure with the resulting beliefs and attitudes that are generated as a result. As far as one style being better than another (eg Erle's Lu Chan) this is also irrelevant since the individual practitioner makes the difference and not the art he or she learns. For instance, I know of people who do "deadly styles" that include outright combative sequences with violent movements, etc, and yet the best martial artists I have met perform the Yang Cheng Fu style forms slowly. In addition to this, it is my opinion that training with other people is exponentially more important that individual training (exercise) and that the methods chosen for individual training have little bearing on actual combative abilities gained due to the fact that there are no outside stimuli influencing the practitioner to develop useful motor and perceptual skills.

As far as Erle Montaigue is concerned, he is a likely a very dangerous man from the accounts I have seen of him. However, everything I have come in contact with that has been written by him seems extremely dogmatic in its argument structure in that he sees martial arts in very narrow "natural selection" like terms. He also seems (to me) to manifest the attitude that Taiji is a secretive, esoteric killing art and that the older, the purer and more deadly the style.

But whatever,

[Sam Wiley]

I have noticed a difference lately in the YLC form Erle teaches and YCF's form. I probably would not have noticed at all, had I not read a comment by someone else just beginning to learn both forms who stated that he felt YCF's form flowed more smoothly than YLC's. My observation was the exact opposite. The first long form I learned was YLC's, and every time I practice YCF's it feels like I'm leaving something out. So I am starting to agree with the statement that the first style you learn is the one you prefer. Erle seems to like YLC's form well enough, but YCF's form is the first one he learned, and he has stated that occasionally, he lapses into it while performing YLC's form.

I don't know about the "older more deadly statement." But Erle did go looking for older versions of Taiji, so that may have been true a while back. However, he brought a style back from China that he believes to be a presursor or Ur-style to modern Taiji. The applications are anything but esoteric, and are simple and brutal in the extreme. And if you've seen the amount of material he has produced both in print and in video, or had ever learned from him in person, your opinion might be that he gives things out in way too much detail, and to anyone who wants it.

In any case, the information here about the Wu style has been very interesting. It's nice to see a civil discussion.

[jon]

Yay for the ability to drop my two cents in the slot...

According to what IVE been told (ie its all my exposure not gospell).
Yang Chen Fu's long form has been though three different itterations.
The original frame included kicks with many of the steps and was performed faster with fa-ging. The combat mind was on creating force though small frame circles and on evading then countering with solid blows or kicks. The training also included a long gim form as well as a short plus a long two man set. Interesting a book was published with pictures from many of these sets but it was pulled from the shelfs by the govenment shortly after. Still you CAN occasionaly find pics from it around. Yang Chen Fu's eldest sons linage still retains some or all of these traits.
I learn this so obviously i can kill you all so listen on.

The first restructure was done when Yang Chen Fu became very popular. The form was similar but done slowly and more smoothly with less kicking and was basicaly easyer to learn. Many of Yang Chen Fus more famous students including Chen Man Ching learnt this form and system. The long gim form was also removed and the two man set was cut down considerably. This set was then written up by Chen Man Ching and agreed upon by the govement to be published. MANY photos from this form exist.

Then finaly when Yang Chen Fu got well basicaly errr VERY fat, he changed the form yet again. His postures became VERY open and the movements much simpler. He also removed many of the smaller more intricate movements. At least this is how he PERFORMED. There is a good chance he still would have taught some of his better students the old frame as well. The new form was basicaly for public consumption and to please the govenment.


Still the plain fact is Yang Chen Fu was ALWAYS very very good. He was never beaten to my knowledge and thats a pretty darn good record for a massively overweight martial arts master.


Anyway before someone tells me im wrong please read my disclaimer...
I DONT CARE!!!
Its just gossip really, everyones dead...
We can all guess about what we think its 'meant' to be but in the end it just comes down to if it works for YOU then do it.



PS Yang Lu Chan never actualy BEAT his opponets he simply 'pushed' them. Infact most of his 'matches' where infront of govement officals and full fighting was almost never a part of it.
Yang Chen Fu was so fat its no wonder no one could ever hurt him.
Chen Style comes from a village ffs
Sun Lu Tang was darn good but just did his own thing. How can you know you have his 'fighting' hand?
Fu Chen Sung never taught ANYONE most of his better stuff.
And errrrrr ummmmm Wu style is to soft and looks sissy
So who really cares anyway?

Yeah that should annoy everyone, im going out to practice my LONG gim form. ner ner ne ner ner

Im sorry everyone im just playing

[dedalus]

Time for a new sig!

[Shaolin Master]

The kicking concepts were taught to YLC from the Zhao Bao Style! (Which contains kicks in every step almost when performing the large frame).

The Zhao Bao 2 man set also predates the Yang one and was probably the concept which made the Yang style develop one.

Postures mean nothing unless understood.

Wu Style has some of the best training methods for push hands.
They really understand the essence of Taiji practically. Yang emphasises the postures often too much (of course there are exceptions I doubt William Ho is an exception though).

So go and play sword ( I am sure you mean form as you'd never learn to use it )


I am just playing also.

[RAF]

http://www.geocities.com/meiyingsheng/

Mei Ying Sheng studied with Fu Zhong Wen nearly all his life as a formal student. He also studied with other direct lineage holders of Yang Cheng Fu. Ted Knecht runs his website and could answer many of your questions. Ted also is a gold medal winner in the Wu style of taijiquan and fluent in Chinese.

These guys are no BS. They know who trained with whom and how Yang Cheng Fu trained both early and late in his life.

Although I am not a Yang Cheng Fu practitioner, they are the one of the best sources for understanding Yang taijiquan.

Other guy, Howard??? Thomas, spent 5 years in China with Mei Ying Sheng and wrote a great book on his experiences.

In the translated text of Fu Zhong Wen, Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan, Louis Swaim lays out some interesting notes by Fu Zhongwen. Read the history section. This guy knows Chinese inside/out and translates professionally as does Ted Knecht. They travel to China frequently, translate from those who are in the direct lineage and in essence, clean up a lot of the bullshyt you hear.

A little descriptive comment on Yang Cheng Fu's flavor from Chen Weiming, long time formal student:

"After Yang Cheng Fu went to the South, he began to explicitly emphasize the use of Taijiquan in treating illness and protecting health. For example, when Chengfu first performed his art in Shanghai, the movements of Separating Feet and Kick with Heel still retained the training methods of RAPID KICKS having the sound of wind. Later, however, he changed to slow, gradual kicks, with the placement of fajin (issuing energy) in the kicks being concealed within. OTHER BOXING POWERS and METHODS (in reference to Yang Cheng Fu's system) were also transformed to a continuous pace with no breaking of the cadence and from a hurried pace to an even pace." p. 6.

"ChengFu's boxing style during his middle years was bold and vigorous, powerful and strong, with imposing leaps." p. 7.


What you can infer is that the original flavors of Yang shi taijiquan were indeed more like the Chen style flavor of lao jia (Fu Zhong Wen writes this in an earlier part of the text) and it was Yang Cheng Fu who was responsible for making a major alteration in the system (Swaim also indicated that Fu Zhong Wen also acknowledges that Yang Lu Chan did the same) and it tells you exactly why---for health.

Again, if you go to China's Living Treasure, you'll find Fu Shen Song's son, right before your living eyes, Fu Sheng Yuan, demonstrating 3 or 4 single moving postures from the form with fajing expression. I can only imagine what they teach behind closed doors.

Pure speculation (hypothesis)---Zheng Man Qing cured Yang Cheng Fu's wife of an illness (in the late 1920s or 1930s?? in Shanghai) and was repayed by closed-door instruction. Did this incident, along with Zheng Man Qing's entry cause Yang Cheng Fu to reflect upon the more on the need to change it from martial arts flavoring to health orientation? It makes sense given the historical time frame (late 1920s to 1936) and the prevalent use of guns.

To our best documented evidence (minimal speculation) we know that the term taijiquan only comes into usage

Yang Lu Chan (1799-1872) learned the system of boxing (Chen style whose postures of pao chui whose movements are almost identical to those found in the manual of Ming General Qi Jiguang's Boxing Classic: Chapters on Essentials (circa 1561)) and taught it to Wu Yuxiang, calling it varously RUAN (soft) or HUA (dissolving) boxing, based on Yang's ability to dissipate and render ineffective his opponent's attacks. It was only after Wu Yuxiang was involved with it that the boxing system obtained the name "taijquan". p 7, The Origin of the Name "Taijiquan", Taijiquan Journal, vol. 2, no. 1, Winter 2001.

All of these classifications Yang, Chen, Wu may not be as important as underlying principles.

Last quote, "Philosophizing or intellectualization of the martial arts to have been a late-development phenomena in Chinese history that evolved along with a broader trend of philosophical thought, one which emphasized combining literary and physical training under a concept of "practical learning". The educator Yan Yuan (1635-1704) who emphasized teaching both civil and martial virtures was at the forefront of this school. He is known to have personally practiced boxing and sword. Wu Yuxiang to whom the earliest use of the term "taijiquan" can be traced, and his brothers seem to have been influenced by this school of thought." p. 7

Current thought on the Zhao Bao style, hu lei jia, etc. is that they are definite outgrowths from the Chen Village. The oral history and records of the Zhao Bao system have yet to be scrutinized by by the academics at large but indeed may eventually lead to more insights and changes in the history and characterizations of the taijiquan system. Only time will tell.

Academics and lineage are never good substitutes for practice and principles but they do have their role, especially in helping sort BS from fact.