all 9/11 and related american political threads, merged here

[David Jamieson]

well played rogue.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I fail to see how this was well played. All he managed to do was raise more questions than answer. He failed to answer anything aimed at him and yet he gets praise? It's so easy to answer a question with a question. It's like playing basketball with a retard... turn his headgear around and he can't see the basket.

Whatever, though. I tried to have an intellectual debate, but all I got was questions. That's cool, though. I guess people just like the smell of rouge's pubes.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Also, people don't really understand the meaning of "beyond reasonable doubt." You have failed to provide any evidence that proves that 9/11 was perpetrated by Islamic terrorist beyond reasonable doubt.

Check. Your turn

[David Jamieson]

Also, people don't really understand the meaning of "beyond reasonable doubt." You have failed to provide any evidence that proves that 9/11 was perpetrated by Islamic terrorist beyond reasonable doubt.

Check. Your turn

I would say that "beyond reasonable doubt" is something that applies in a court of law. This stage has not been attained yet.

But did you know that the wtc was bombed before in an attempt to bring it down that failed. This was the admitted act of the faction in question who also proclaimed "we will not fail next time".

I would also add that the attitude of the people who made the CT films that was hashed in the clip that rogue gave is very poor and disregards the living breathing people who were killed in the attack.

The very idea that these people don't exist, didn't exist and are all just fake identities that were put forth is at best ludicrous.

My point is that perhaps some people took advantage of the situation that was presented following the attacks to put forth theior agendas, but this does not necessarily implicate them as teh perpetrators, it only indicates them as opportunistic types who perhaps have made a bad play in doing so.

My position above is that there was gross incompitence and neglegance on the part of the US military, the office of the president and so on and the event is indicative of americas inability to defend itself from attacks such as this.

The last 5 years has shown nothing more than archaic and draconian measures as an attemnpt at making a remedy to the glaring fact that america is NOT safe, is still NOT safe and won't be made safe by a patriot act or new immigration laws or spying on citizens. Clearly a different measure of response is required as the borders are still not properly secured as shown in the latest study where people got across without being asked for identification etc etc etc. The whole airport security goons is another issue where you have improperly trained people doing the jobs they are not qualified to do and so on.

A real solution has not been forthcoming.

As for all the physics and math and photos and film and criticisms etc etc. THose will continue I think.

If people don't think that the militant and radical fundamentalist arm of islam is not a problem and will not continue to be a problem, then I would say that it is those folks who are the retarded kid with the helmet on backwards that you speak of.

Honestly, there is no rocket surgery involved in determinig that these factions do indeed want to do harm to the west.

Now, could the west change their foreign policies in teh middle east? What does that mean? Which foreign policy does the radical islamic faction have the most trouble with? I believe that would be the existance of Israel as a state unto itself and the support for said state by the west. Should we not support Israel? It is the only real democracy in the region. It has a right to exist as a state unto itself and it deserves our full support in maintaining that existance and that democracy.

This doesn't mean we should be trying to shove democratic models down arab states throats however. And that part of the policy should be changed.

Threats must be dealt with and generally they are dealt with in whatever fashion is known. It is clear that as a species we are unable to move past the idea of conflict as a type of solution to this type of problem.

To turn on yourself when the enemy is still at the gate is the action of blind apathetic self loathing. Why hate yourself? Bush is not an appropriate person for the office he resides in, I agree. His cronies are all opportuinistic chickenhawks, but what else is new in the GOP? But is their truly indication that they were responsible for the attack?

There are many unanswered questions surrounding that fateful day. Perhaps we will never know some of the answers, much the same as teh speculation revolving around the kennedy assassination to this day.

But is it reasonable to discount the lives of those people who died in favour of promoting what amounts to a theory? There are some conspiracy theorists out there that are making a good living off this. They are ethical? Do you think they really want to know the truth or do they want to perpetuate a meme that keeps the money rolling into and the hits on their sites high? Are they not being the samne opportunistic types?

My opinion is that people don't want to face the truth that there is a faction out there who want you and your family dead and your country in flames. they are not your government, they are radical islamic fundamentalists and they have taken it to the extremes in their bent to kill as many of you as they possibly can.

To the tune of about 2000 soldiers in Iraq, 2 soldiers a week in afghanistan for Canada are lost in firefights with these factions who do indeed exist. UBL is still free and has not been run down. Hezbollah is gaining acceptance in the middle east because of Israels attemnpts at destroying their militant arm.

Im not saying the democvratic way is the best way, but frankly, I'd rather live under rule of law than under the rule of some cleric who is fanatically trying to wipe oput any advances in civilization in favour of retaiuning their own power over a mass of people who do not have even close to the standard of living afforded by a democracy or the freedoms of same o the educational opportunity etc etc etc.

If you think this faction doesn't exist and this is all a big sham based on power retention and control in the west by western elements, then that is really stretching it.

Call a spade a spade and take the blinders off. the Conspiracy theories have less grounding than the reality that radical fundamentalist islam wants YOU dead. suck it up and get with the program. The more division and indecisiveness and second thinking in the west the better for them. Understand that. We are our own worst enemies with this kind of dicision based on speculation and conjecture.

Just try and think for yourselves and try to gain some clarity. It is neither black nor white.

[David Jamieson]

MK-

arms and ordinance are everywhere.
Part of the overall problem is this fact.
In the name of commerce, huge amounts of guns, minitions, ordinance and explosives have been distributed all over the world with no fed ex tracking records.

For instance, up here in canuck land there was a guy in alverta who was a religious extremist and he was into blowing up oil wells. He got his explosives by breaking into a rail maintenace yard and stealing dynamite and cordite they used for clearing avalanche fall off of the tarcks that run through the mountains.

In highway construction there is a lot of ordinance used as well, not to mention that US arms dealers aren't the only ones unchecked wandering the deserts of the arab regions and selling truckloads of deadly devices.

So, I wouldn't venture to guess where they got the explosives, it's not important really, that's a pandoras box that has been opened and there is frankly tons of the stuff floating around with no record of who sold it. You can determine where it was manufactured, but culpability in regards to it's use is another matter entirely.

Turns out the gas saddam used on the Kurds in the 80's was supplied by the USA itself. turns out the oklahoma bombing ordinance used was manufactured from farm supplies and diesel fuel. Improvised devices do not require a degree in science, only a simple recipe using readily available goods taht by themselves are inert.

So, what are you saying? Where did the original bombers get their explosives in the first attempt in 96 to drop the towers?

well, here's the story on it:
http://www.answers.com/topic/world-trade-center-bombing

you tell me what your best guess is.

[MasterKiller]

The FBI and Israel had at least 1 year foreknowledge of that attack.

From the New York Times:

"Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center, and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after the blast.

"The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer, Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.

"The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as being in a far better position than previously known to foil the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers."

The FBI had had all documents relating to plans to blow up the World Trade Center, the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels and other targets in their possession since 1990. Fifty storage boxes of documents concerning detailed plans to blow up the World Trade Center were in police and FBI possession, as Los Angeles Times confirmed July 4, 1993. Every time Salem met with his stooges to discuss these operations, he was "wired" and the FBI was fully aware that the actions were Salem's idea.

[David Jamieson]

Ok, so a police outfit knew there were bad guys that wanted to do bad things.
I would imagine that there is a lot of intelligence gathering going on at all times and that quite a lot is known about some of the plans that are on the table or in motion.

This doesn't mean that it can be stopped in time or the culprits can be easily nabbed.

this doesn't mean that the purchases of ingredients can be stopped either or that said ingredients for the making of ordinance can be easily found without infringing on the civil liberties of a lot of people.

would you rather live in a police state where summary searches and seizures were ok? I don't understand your point I guess.

In order to catch and control the enemy within the gates with relative ease, martial law would need to be put into place. There are failings in the investigative and strike abilities of various police and military organizations and combined with the rule of law, it becomes a very difficult process to get the timing exactly right one wheres and whens. How and why is fairly clear in regards to the bombings. When and where is another matter entirely and the future is not ours to see, que sera sera.

I wish I lived in a perfect world too. But that is the furthest thing from the truth that there is right now.

[MasterKiller]

EDIT---


Nevermind. I don't need to get dragged into this today.

[Ou Ji]

Hmm, can you say 'allowed to happen'?

Was 9/11 'allowed to happen'?

[rogue]

Maybe this will answer the questions about NORAD.

I'm surprised the Loose Change guys didn't post this first. Actually I'm not as this blows some of their insanity out of the water.

[David Jamieson]

Hmm, can you say 'allowed to happen'?

Was 9/11 'allowed to happen'?

speculation and conjecture.

imo a better question is why are the facts not on the table for all to see in teh hopes that someone can help bring resolution to the issue.

Instead it's limited access to a smaller group of people who may or may not have the ability to sort it. This limited access to information plan is where the failing is.
First it protects those who have culpability and second it lengthens the process of resolution by not having it in the top of everyones mind until resolution and solution is met.

Part of the problem is what you see in the mirror every morning.
So, yes, in that sense 9/11 was allowed to happen. Through apathy, through indifference and through a "me me" attitude that we have all come to wear in this "civilization" we live in. Relativism leading to pluralism leading to indifference when the wading in the minutia overwhelms the motivation to take action because we are all so turned topsy turvy on the reality of the issues that to take the right action is a difficult thing to do.

Truth in point is that we stifle ourselves from caring about the issue and instead choose to debate it intellectually from a point of view that is very one sided more often than not. The power of the people doesn't really exist unless teh people rise up and rising up takes effort and usually includes more problems tacked on on top of things.

the status quo here in the west is a place where most people want to be. Killing and destruction in our own neighbourhood shouldn't be the only thing that shakes any of us awake. But despite this grand idea, it is hard to care for an anonymous person killed in a bombing 5 thousand miles away and who is propagandized as a sympathizer with your known enemy.

Acceptance is a greater issue on the overall matter in my opinion. Over here, we should not be trying to remake the world in our own model. Our own model is not the thing for everyone and it is a mistake to think so. This is a failing of mind on all our parts. The idea that we think we are better when in fact we are only better at insultaing our minds at the evil we do that effects everyone. The trickle down effect of everything from war to slavery to starvation et al that can be related back to anyone of us buying a pair of 6 dollar jeans at a big box store that were made in a sweatshop with endentured slaves. The effect of wanting to buy energy for less than what it costs to produce it. The effect of wanting to be wealthy and successful despite the fact that there is only so much wealth in the world and that if you have more, someone, somewhere is going to have to settle for less. If you have enough wealth compiled into a small segment, you are left with a huge segment that has nothing at all. In the simplest of terms if you had 50 people and 3 apples and only two people held those three apples, what part of the apples would the other 48 people get?

And so we live our lives and if we don't see it or hear of it, it is unimportant to us entirely. We are not concious of ourselves at a level beyond self and sometime immediate family and friends and the rest is just an idea. This is a failing in all of us. It is a fundamental mechanism that allows for lack of compassion and understanding and it is remarkably few people who put into practice the benevolence required to actually make it work for all of us. Some would say that it is so few that it is a veritable waste of time.

Be the change in the world that you want to see. If we each held to that, we would most definitely be in a same but different world to a great extent.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe this will answer the questions about NORAD.

I'm surprised the Loose Change guys didn't post this first. Actually I'm not as this blows some of their insanity out of the water.

Out of 3 hours of audio, he posts about 30 seconds of dialogue.

[rogue]

Here's what you do MK, ask for the full 30 hours and host it on the web yourself.

Here's the other thing about the audio. The people speaking and their jobs are on record along with some context for what is happening, contrast that with the nameless voices used by the Loose Change idiots (Darn, yet another #5) in their silly video.

[rogue]

09:03:52NASYPANY (to Marr): Sir, we got—we've got unconfirmed second hit from another aircraft. Fighters are south of—just south of Long Island, sir. Right now. Fighters are south of Long Island.

With both towers now in flames, Nasypany wants the fighters over Manhattan immediately, but the weapons techs get "pushback" from civilian F.A.A. controllers, who have final authority over the fighters as long as they are in civilian airspace. The F.A.A. controllers are afraid of fast-moving fighters colliding with a passenger plane, of which there are hundreds in the area, still flying normal routes—the morning's unprecedented order to ground all civilian aircraft has not yet been given. To Nasypany, the fact that so many planes are still in the sky is all the more reason to get the fighters close. ("We've already had two," he told me, referring to the hijackings. "Why not more?")

09:07:20NASYPANY: Okay, Foxy. Plug in. I want to make sure this is on tape.… This is what—this is what I foresee that we probably need to do. We need to talk to F.A.A. We need to tell 'em if this stuff's gonna keep on going, we need to take those fighters on and then put 'em over Manhattan, O.K.? That's the best thing. That's the best play right now. So, coordinate with the F.A.A. Tell 'em if there's more out there, which we don't know, let's get 'em over Manhattan. At least we got some kinda play.

Hmmm, is that what we call a stand down?

"The problem there would have been I'd have all my fighters in the air at the same time, which means they'd all run out of gas at the same time," Marr later explained.

Incredibly, Marr has only four armed fighters at his disposal to defend about a quarter of the continental United States. Massive cutbacks at the close of the Cold War reduced NORAD's arsenal of fighters from some 60 battle-ready jets to just 14 across the entire country. (Under different commands, the military generally maintains several hundred unarmed fighter jets for training in the continental U.S.) Only four of NORAD's planes belong to NEADS and are thus anywhere close to Manhattan—the two from Otis, now circling above the ocean off Long Island, and the two in Virginia at Langley.

Remember the peace dividend. But last I looked Canada and us were friends and Mexico's AF wasn't much of a threat.

[FuXnDajenariht]

so who saw that frontline special about tricky **** and the incompetent bunch? called the darkside i think....

and the concensus is. i think they allude to some incredible notions. beyond outting them for the lies they told. im surprised PBS allowed it. but its a good documen. what did you think of it?