MMA / NHB / TMA and Golden Age of MA

[MA fanatic]

I keep reading the same subjects addressed on different threads.
So wanted to bring it all together on one thread just to make jumping from topic to topic easier.

First: Most stylists who compete in NHB and MMA come from traditional arts. If you think about it, BJJ, Pankration, Boxing, Wrestling, Hook and Shoot, Muay Thai, Sambo, etc. etc. all have their own history, traditions, lineage, masters, discipline, and methods of training which range from traditional to modern. Just because some fighters prefere certain techniques over others when competing in MMA / NHB, it doesn't mean that they only train in a few techniques. BJJ, for example, is an art which is as traditional as TKD, Karate, Kung Fu, Hapkido, Aikido, and Judo. The same can be said for virtually any art an NHB fighter practices. Sure there are schools which teach some mix and match blend of techniques. But, schools which produce best NHB fighters are in fact traditional.

Second: Martial arts are intended for fighting. As a matter of fact, masters who created styles often tested their techniques in combat against other systems (hell even Tai Chi was a combat art with meridian pressure points being hidden in its forms). This method of perfecting oneself and expanding one's art stopped fairly recently as martial arts became watered down. Now more and more masters are concerned with the business side of teaching, and use lineages and stories of ancient masters to prove their skill. It is important to note that masters who founded styles (masters like Jigoro Kano, Mas Oyama, Helio Gracie, Kanbun Uechi, etc. etc.) were inovators with limmited tools to inovate. Had they lived in what is now the Golden Age Of Martial Arts, they to would be cross training and experimenting.

Third: It is true that some mma magazines and even fighters take on that 'macho guy' image. However, let me assure you that should you talk to anyone who is anything on the NHB circut, you'd quickly see an individual who is quite humble, kind, and open minded. I train with mma fighters at the Gracie bjj academy. I have met Tito Ortiz, Severn, members of the Gracie family, Fabiano Iha, Eric Paulson, etc. etc. and all are gentlemen to say the least. All care about exchanging knowledge, having a good time, and promoting martial arts to the best of their ability.
Lets also not forget that if an NHB guy is acting tough, he better have a way to prove his toughness. Lets also not forget that when first martial arts made their way to the United States, it was the so called "traditional" masters who acted tough and made claims of skills they did not posses. Now many have quieted down since NHB is an avenue for them to prove how deadly they really are.

Fourth: There is no reason why a so called "traditional master" would or should not be able to prove his deadly skills in the NHB ring. There are NHB tournaments like IVT where there are hardly any rules and virtually no protective equipment worn. Just to say that "my style is too deadly for NHB fighting and not intended for sport" is most certainly an exuse. May as well just say, "look, i'm not in shape to fight guys who train full time to fight." NHB fighters are modern day gladiators. Most would also be offended if you call them street fighters (though all would fair very well in a street confrontation...just as well if not better than any traditional master). NHB is not for everyone, but it had done nothing but good things. It dispelled myths, quickly proved which techniques work and which don't, promoted the importance of conditioning and proved the need for all stylists to grapple (if you can't fight on the ground, you can't fight).

Fifth: We're living in the Golden Years Of Martial Arts. We are now exposed to any art from around the globe. We can also now train from virtually any well known living master (be it via seminar, individual, video, etc. etc.). The masters who created styles only dreamed of living in the time we live today. Do you guys think that had Gichin Funakoshi lived in LA right now, he would not visit the Gracie Academy or the Lions Den? Of course he would. He would also love to learn some Muay Thai, Sambo, Wing Chun, and even Tai Chi (as a matter of fact, he advocates for grappling in his autobiography "Karatedo My Way Of Life"). But, somehow, the most important part of lineage, is forgoten. We're so concerned with who was promoted when and by whom, we forget who the men who did the promoting were. They were inovators. They were fighters who would now be doing more training than promoting and making money. They would be disgusted with how their memory changed over the years.
MA fanatic

[NorthernMantis]

Hey great post. Now if you started psoting like this then maybe more people would pay more attention.

[MA fanatic]

Northern,
I think if people reread my posts on every single thread, they'll see that I have posted the same thing verbatum. The only time I have deveated was when obvious children challenged me to fights, insulted me, talked about some people they never met as in a negative way (not talking about technique but personality), and made obvious errors in historical facts. Otherwise, I have always said the same things over and over. This time I just wanted to bring several topics under one thread because I see the same people addressing these topics on different threads. Sometimes people mix threads and address topics from one thread on another thread. I have had my posts from one thread addressed on some different thread. All that gets confusing.
MA fanatic

[Le nOObi]

good points

[old jong]

Sorry but I don't buy that! IMO,The NHB,MMA thing is only an offshot of MA's.
The small minority practicing those sports are not to be considered as representing a "golden age" of any kind.We are going through a period where a new fighting sport designed for public performance was created but can this sport becomes practical and practicable for anybody?...I seriously doupt it!
This sport can be practiced with profit only by young athletes in their primes.The same as in boxing or any other competitive and elitist sports.
I can't imagine the ordinary guy in his fourthie's or fiftie's going to his chuteboxing lesson after work,coming back to his wife with his teeth in a brown bag and two black eyes and going on with his normal life!...
IMO,it is more the golden age of ring fighting...For the promotors!

[old jong]

It is the golden age of trolls!...

[MA fanatic]

Old Jong: I hope you're not calling me a troll. What did I say that was so wrong.

Oh, I know, you read my post too quickly. Go ahead, take a deep breath and reread it again. I didn't say that we're living in the Golden Age of Martial ARts because of NHB. We're living in the Golden Age Of Martial ARts because we have exposure to all arts around the world. We also have the opportunity to study first hand from some of the worlds greatest masters. I only said that we have benefited from NHB. You should read more carefully before responding to someone's post.

As for NHB fighters, you're right, fighting is a game for people in their youth. There have been NHB fighters, however, who have competed in their mid 40s. No reason those who call themselves "traditionalists" couldn't compete while they're in their prime. As for people older than 40, no one is expecting them to fight. I would however put my money on Rickson Gracie who is in his 40s, if he had to fight a "classical" (for lack of a better word) master who never fought. Also, if you actually see some NHB events, you'd find that most winners come from fairly traditional backgrounds (bjj, judo, sambo, muay thai, pankration, JKD, etc. etc.).
Now please learn to read more carefully before challenging someone's statements or insulting anyone.
MA fanatic

[dezhen2001]

We're living in a 'Golden Age of MA' where most people are only concerned with making $$$. Yup, martial arts are very popular in the world right now - but how many people are training correctly and not as some exercise or child minding capacity?

We're living in a 'Golden Age of MA' where we have ppl always arguing the effectivness of our skill, though most of us just get on with our training to get better and develop it.

We're living in a 'Golden Age of MA' where ppl who have good marketing can fly all over the world and teach some BS to those who want to get out of doing hard training and find a shortcut.

We're living in a 'Golden Age of MA' where ppl 'test their skill' in a ring for others entertainment, then look down upon those who don't (otherwise why would a lot of u guys be here?).

If this is the 'Golden Age', then count me out... i'd rather get on with developing my own skill

david

[ArrowFists]

Excellent post MA Fanatic.

Unfortunately I think it fell on largely deaf ears.

Your points about the masters of old was spot on. Fighting has always been an important aspect of Martial Arts, and masters trying out their skill against other arts and adapting is common knowledge.

If your "art" or style is too "deadly" to be competitive, then you aren't doing a martial art.

You're doing martial fluff.

Or as we call it, "Bullshido".

[awakenwired]

Nice post. I understand the whole "Golden Age" bit, and agree with it actually. I don't really understand those commenting otherwise. Theres a lot of knowledge out there in this day and age, and a great deal of it is Available. But all that knowledge out there is lost unless people can keep open their minds, and learn new lessons. As far as all the talk about marketing, and profits, and the $$$. Well ya, it's probably the golden age for that too, but greed infects just about EVERYTHING in life, not just MA.

Once again, good point. I hope others start seeing the light soon.

[Chang Style Novice]

I agree that the new era of openness and globalization (ie: more martial arts from more cultures more readily available for study) is pretty much indicitive of a golden age, at least in one sense. The ongoing efforts by many people to combine ancient, time proven practices with modern equipment, nutrition, and anatomical/analytical methods is producing a stronger, healthier, better informed top level practioner than was ever possible before, too, and that too can be called a golden age. There's a yang to all this yin, though, and that is as noted: simultaneously we have a large number of martial artists who view their skills as a money making resource and little else. There's nothing wrong with making money (or so I hear - I don't make much ), but the first priority of any master of ANYTHING should be to preserve their knowledge for future generations. There's nothing wrong with teaching anyone be they kids or adults discipline and physical fitness, and martial arts are an excellent source of both. And, frankly, in my ideal world there's not much need for anybody to defend themselves from attackers or to go to war, so the most fundamental uses of martial arts don't really have a place in it.

But I believe that humans thrive on conflict. When things are too calm and peaceful, someone is going to get bored and start something just to have something to do. Martial arts in it's sportfighting aspect allows for conflict to exist in a way that doesn't involve actual political or economic strife or oppression, and that is overall fundamentally healthy for the participants (assuming referees stop when appropriate and everyone taps out when they should.) Naturally, contests like this don't have to be mano a mano slugrapplefesten: it's equally possible to race, or play chess, or target shoot, or any number of other ways. But none of these is directly a contest between individuals as a ring fight.

**** insomnia - I can't figure the original point of this post anymore. Well, I'm clicking submit reply anyway. Hope somebody can figure out what I'm saying now that I can't anymore.

[old jong]

I was not calling you a troll! It is true that it is the golden age of the trolls,that's all!...

BTW, this "golden age" of MA will often prevent people from going deep enough in their first chosen MA to get good enough to use it for real before starting to fix their personnal techniques salad from all around the spectrum of styles.
But it is just my opinion!

[MA fanatic]

It is interesting that the people who argued against my post, which is good because that is what forums are about (I'm all for healthy debating), have always disagreed with me no matter what I say. It's like I'm the Yang and they're the Yin. Oh OK cool

Old Jong: I'm sorry, I thought you were calling me a troll. I take back my comments.


I think you guys are missing the point. The people who are fighting in a ring, don't care if someone is or isn't in the ring unless they make statements of being deadly. Even then, most NHB guys only really care about other NHB guys. They really want to promote MMA as a sport because of the time they spend training and the love they have for it. If you actually talk to any MMA guy, they would love to see and hear about new techniques. They would immediately drill them and test them (hey, even Dan Severn attended George Dillman seminars for pressure point training). I think it's the CMA guys who more or less attack NHB fighters who actually come from classical fighting styles and merely want to test their skills.

The arts were build on challenge matches. It's important to remember that like the NHB fighters of today, masters have done that for centuries. They were limmited to fighting the arts from their country of their origin, that is the only difference. Mas Oyama and his students fought in full contact all across the world promoting Kyokushinkai. Kanbun Uechi said what he would take on all challengers (which he did) upon arriving from China to Okinawa. I heard stories of Chinese masters who have done the same. Even the mild enlightened Morihei Ueshiba (creater of aikido) had his share of battles and even killings before discovering harmony and creating Aikido. Hell, even Tai Chi (which is now mostly taught a method to promote health and vitality) use to be a deadly art. NHB is nothing new. It is new in the United States, but if you take the historical time line of martial arts, NHB matches had been going on for centuries. Such matches were always valued and considered very important in testing one's skill.

As for the money end of martial arts, that is something you have to take on with your instructors. I am also pist when I hear people chargin rates that are out of this world. I am even more ****ed when I hear students say, "we owe a lot to grandmaster .... because he doesn't have to teach us, but he's passing his secret knowledge onto us anyway." Yet these same masters charge thousands. I am personally tired of masters selling off your student contracts to collection agencies (popular now agong many new instructors and Korean Martial Arts masters). I am sick of people charging an arm and a leg for promotion tests which they give once a month, yet create 15 different belts prior to black belt (this way a student reaches his black belt not knowing anything, and still pays thousands). I'm sick of people taking a large chunk of change for montly training, then dictating how often a student should train during the week (one price being for 1 day a week, another price being for 3 days a week, and some astronomical price being for "unlimmited use of the dojo, dojang and/or kwoon."). But, that's life.

This is America. Where we have freedom to train from who ever we like when ever we like. That is why this is the Golden Age of Martial Arts. If one teacher is a money hungry master, I will find someone else who will teach me better. The people of old never had that chance. They never had those freedoms. In a Global sense, we're much better off than ever before.
MA fanatic

[Merryprankster]

Case in point--a random Muay Thai instructor showed up and told Lloyd that he would like to teach MT at Lloyd's school. Well, the guy barely speaks english, but he has a translator that helps him, and the resume of this fellow is both easily verifiable and impressive. Good pro MT record in Thailand, a Masters in physical education, and he's been teaching MT, managing venues and was a college MT coach for several years. The guy KNOWS his stuff, and the good MT fighters we have at our gym have all commented on it.

This never would have happenned 80 years ago.

[PLCrane]

Originally posted by MA fanatic:

Fourth: There is no reason why a so called "traditional master" would or should not be able to prove his deadly skills in the NHB ring. There are NHB tournaments like IVT where there are hardly any rules and virtually no protective equipment worn. Just to say that "my style is too deadly for NHB fighting and not intended for sport" is most certainly an exuse.

I can think of a few reasons why they wouldn't want to do that. First of all, kungfu has been proven to be too dangerous for sport. In the 70's and 80's there were full contact kungfu tournaments, and the number of serious injuries was unacceptable. Consequently, the rules were changed.

All the martial artists I know who are over the age of 50 and used to do full contact fighting still suffer from injuries they received 20-30 years ago.

None of the advanced level martial artists I know have any desire to cause anyone else injuries just to prove a point.



Fifth: We're living in the Golden Years Of Martial Arts. We are now exposed to any art from around the globe. We can also now train from virtually any well known living master (be it via seminar, individual, video, etc. etc.).

Yeah, we are. It's amazing what's available now compared to 20 years ago.