San Shou Ignorance

[jon]

"I want to add something. Thailand and China fought each other like 6 times already, the last fight was a couple of days ago in china. 6 competitors 1 being a female. Muay thai fighters lost 6 to 1. They only won two competions in the past year or so. China challenged or was challenged by Japan(karate),Korea(TKD),Thailand(MuayThai),Americ a (kickboxing, and boxing), and every country who fought lost. With an almost complete victory on every match. "


* Under what rule set???
Being an avid fan of San Shao and also doing a lot of it myself this becomes hard to say. Still i hate seeing facts get bent and i also hate seeing one art billed as being 'supperiour' to all others.

For a start...
Yes China and Thailand often have exibition matches, the inherent problem being they can NEVER agree on rules that still benifit both sets of fighters.
Under the Chinese rule set the Chinese always win, becouse there opponents cant use knees and elbows ( which are a BIG part of there weaponary). Under Thailand rules the Chinese always get learned due to not being able to use there throws and not being used to dealing with the Thailand fighters clinch game.
There was also once a match between San Shao and western boxers. The western boxers had to stick to boxing rules and the Chinese where allowed full access to there San Shao movements.
Needless to say the boxers where slaughtered but STILL a couple managed to win there fights!!!


San Shao is not some unbeatable ringfighting art, its simply a sport. Change the rules and you automaticaly run into trouble.

They have been trying for YEARS to organise comps where both the Thai's and the Chinese can use there full arsonal but you would never guess what... Neither party wants that either.
The plain fact is everyone is comfortable in there own happy little world.

There is no point argueing over which is better out of San Shao Thai Boxing, kickboxing, western boxing, shootfighting. When it comes down to it there all simply sports.
Do you ask an archer why he cant use a pistol?

[Liokault]

I think that what most people are missing here is that san shou is not a stlye it is a FORMAT!! Now if some one wants to call their art san shou they are mearly quoteing their chosen competition format in their stlyes title.

You said you have never seen any on tv.....Well if it takes off at the olympics then that will change.

The best thing going for san shou is that fights tend to be much more crowd pleasing than watching 2 guys dry hump each other on the floor for half an hour!!

[CD Lee]

Liokault said

The best thing going for san shou is that fights tend to be much more crowd pleasing than watching 2 guys dry hump each other on the floor for half an hour!!

That is so true.

I gotta say, I have to fast-forward when watching a rerun of a UFC event in which they just fall into the guard for 5 minutes at a time.

I am not sure what exotic techniques Ralek is looking for in Kung Fu styles to be so unique when used at speed. If he saw a good Xingyi fighter I know exactly what he would say. "The guy used boxing!!! I saw an uppercut. He was charging the guy and blasting him with punches!" I don't think he would see anything there that would satisfy his craving for some idealistic Kung Fu technique that he has in mind.

Is an armbar Kung Fu? Who cares. There is a lot of crossover in non-rules based MA because the human body works a certain way. An arm bar is a great example. It is in Karate, JJ, BJJ, Kung Fu styles, etc. It is simply a manipulation of the human structure. I think Xingyi kicks and stomps look like street fighting, but who cares? It works. Stomping your opponent could be used by any style on the street. Are people using Kung Fu everytime they stomp on a guys instep or back of his calf? Ridiculous really.

[friday]

MP

wouldn't most of those bias factors apply to most countries?
except the communist thing and i'm not sure how much that relates to things either

[Liokault]

There was also once a match between San Shao and western boxers. The western boxers had to stick to boxing rules and the Chinese where allowed full access to there San Shao movements.

Was this the one where it was agreed that the boxers were alowed to fight on their knees to make up for their lack of anti takedown training Jon?

Also can we please stop feeding the troll Ralek and all just ignore him?

[wusu2000]

The thai's were allowed to elbow and knee. But they had to wear elbow pads. They wear them for training and so it limits cuts on the body of there opponent. Also, the guy who says Chinese wushu/sanshou looks like wrestling, well your right. They took Shai Jiao, the oldest form of chinese martial arts dating back more than 5000 or so years, and incorperated it with sanshou. Not some western boxing and wrestling. You actually think westerners came up with boxing. Come on man use common sense.

[Chang Style Novice]

Anytime Ralek posts on a thread with "Ignorance" in the title, he's on topic.

CD Lee's last two paragraphs are a perfect summation of my opinions on the subject.

[Merryprankster]

Friday,

Communist countries have historically viewed every athlete and success in the arena as a demonstration that their system of government does great things.

As far as the racism goes, you're talking about a culture that historically viewed itself as far superior to everybody else in the world, with their culture/race being human, and everybody else being barbarians, with less recent justification, I might add, than almost any other civilization on earth. The Chinese did some amazing things, and their culture is varied and rich. It has also historically been intensely anti-anything-not-Chinese. The Japanese have historically done the same thing, but that seems to have gotten beat out of them somewhat.

I'm not arguing that other cultures don't suffer from similar problems, but it seems to be particularly ingrained in the Chinese culture, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot to discourage it.

[CD Lee]

Also can we please stop feeding the troll Ralek and all just ignore him?

Hey! It is always fun to feed the animals. Let's just make sure we stop short of a petting zoo for Ralek please.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
As far as the racism goes, you're talking about a culture that historically viewed itself as far superior to everybody else in the world, with their culture/race being human, and everybody else being barbarians, with less recent justification, I might add, than almost any other civilization on earth.
[snip]
I'm not arguing that other cultures don't suffer from similar problems, but it seems to be particularly ingrained in the Chinese culture, and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot to discourage it.

I dont think its particularly ingrained in the chinese at all. I think to some extent this does border on racism on your part. What about the colonialism that practically evey western country engaged in? What about the treatment of non-christians in the western world and its colonies?What about the treatment of natives by western explorer? etc etc etc...

[CD Lee]

So...WHERE DO SANDA MATCHES GET BROADCAST IN THE STATES??? Where have all you guys seen these matches?

[Merryprankster]

Le nOObi,

Nobody's perfect Le nOObi. And I've found that individuals rarely ever live up to the stereotypes we set for them. Germans are not all cold and calculating, and the Chinese aren't all racist. Let me rephrase it to something more acceptable, and hopefully more accurate.

There is a great emphasis in Chinese culture on tradition. Doing things the 'right way,' the traditional way, the Chinese way. This, IMO, tends to create insular thinking, and it's a short leap to 'everybody else is doing it wrong, so we must be better.' 'Right thinking,' is dangerous ala 1984. Of course, that applies to more than just cultures and races, but can apply to political ideologies (Communism), Religions (the Crusades, or as you pointed out, forced missions to native cultures, etc).

I think every culture has had this at one point in time or still struggles with it. The Greeks did it... so did the Romans. I imagine some feel the west, and the U.S. in particular, are doing it now. My rant should have been more against insular thinking- which leads to hubris, rather than the Chinese, the issue is certainly not unique to the Chinese.... I apologize for the tone and for any insult. I can't say it wasn't intended to some degree, but it certainly has an air about it I'm not happy with. Pointing out that the Chinese have been just as guilty as anybody else would have sufficed quite nicely. I'm probably tired of the constant indictment of western culture as though we're the source of all evil, and overreacted.

On an internet forum no less. KEEEEE-RIST I need a life!

[Merryprankster]

Just so it's not buried in the post:

I apologize for what I posted re: Chinese racism. It was a poor choice of words, and hardly accurate. The problem is certainly not unique to any civilization, and it's far more accurate to identify it as a human problem.

Mea Culpa. I'll probably need to get hit by a bus to restore the karmic balance I f-ed up on this one!

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Just so it's not buried in the post:

I apologize for what I posted re: Chinese racism. It was a poor choice of words, and hardly accurate. The problem is certainly not unique to any civilization, and it's far more accurate to identify it as a human problem.

Mea Culpa. I'll probably need to get hit by a bus to restore the karmic balance I f-ed up on this one!

Everybody makes dumb posts sometimes! Apology accepted!

[Suntzu]

SAN SHOU IS THE GREATEST SPORT IN THE WORLD!!!! But it's not on TV… so for now the only places to see sanshou is at a san shou event or a tournament that has san shou… which is too bad cuz I have seen some PPV quality fight that unless you was there or has a tape of the fight, will never be seen again... hopefully, the AoW in Oct will get some press... news print, magazines, TV... something...