Do you think the reverse punch is inefficient?

[SevenStar]

if so, please explain.

[gazza99]

Its simply not economical, I commented on it to the last TKD intructor I met, who said he wouldnt use it in a fight, but would revert to more of a jab, which was very weak when he showed it. But right after I spoke with him about it I watched him teach his class, he had them do the reverse punch in the air hundreds of times. You fight like you train, and every guy ive sparred that has trained this punch extensively has always drawn his hand to his waist before and after striking, which always gives me an easy opening to take them out.

If you think you are sacrificing speed for power with this punch, think again. I have yet to meet anyone who could outpunch me with a reverse punch. My one-inch punch is much better, and more efficient, of course it took more years to develop.

Gary

[rogue]

It's just another tool in the box, sometimes it's the most efficient tool other times not.

When you say reverse punch what do you mean? In my school our reverse punch just means that if your left leg is forward then the reverse punch is thrown with the right. In fundamentals practice and kata it's thrown from either the hip or chest level and we will use the returning hand, but that's just one hand technique out of many. During sparring it's thrown from where ever the hand is which usually means with guard high then like a boxers cross, with some more traditional guards the reverse punch fist comes out from in front of the body at about low chest height and hits mostly as a verticle punch, but never withdrawn to the hip. I guess sparring just about every class has kept us from falling into the hip chamber trap that Gary and others have described seeing.

On the street shooting from the hip can be handy, not every fight starts with you in your best fighting stance with your hands up.

PS Gary, I've been looking for a Tai Chi school and have yet to find one that spars. So you can add three to your running total of non-sparring TCC schools. Now I have met several tai chi people that spar outside of their schools and have even worked out with them on push hands and sparring.

[dre]

It isn't.

it is usefull when in the Den Shi Bon stance, in the close range, and you have one of his arms trapped. You must be with his side to make that move work,

. . .But I do this one a lot. I find it very usefull.

It's just another tool.

[Royal Dragon]

If your opponent is punching off his left, I step to the outside of him and outside block with my left. At the exact same time I fire the reverse punch, from a chamber into his ribs.

Since I'm comming from the side of them, my left arm is able to cover both of the opponents arms so I'm safe.

Since my reverse punch is comming from a chamber, it is UNDER thier veiw and they never see it comming, especially since they are watching my blocking hand in fear that it's directed to thier face next.

It's also fun to see how fast you can go from hitting the ribs back up to chamber and then to the face ( I use a nonstop circular motion and never really rechamber though). Timming helps too. sometimes it's better to pause a second to let the pain in the ribs sink in a bit, so they try to cover, thus opening the face even more.

Never try to do this the Tae Kwon Do way though, it leaves you way to vulnerale and open.

[dnc101]

Originally posted by gazza99
If you think you are sacrificing speed for power with this punch, think again. Gary

In the external arts, speed is the primary component of power. Anything that inhibits speed robs power. As for punching from a chambered position, that prohibits quickness. A punch should be thrown from point of origin. If you can't get enough power in your punch from where you are, use another weapon. Drawing back first is wasted motion and a major telegraph. Rechambering after the punch leaves no guard, you are open (as g99 also pointed out).

There are also anatomical reasons the reverse punch is inefficient. The punch gets its' name from the fact that it traditionally starts from the chamber with the palm up. Then as the elbow clears the body the fist turns over so the palm is down, so it is reversed. If you do that slowly and watch your forearm you will see that the radius and ulna (the two bones in your forearm) rotate around each other. The radius (on the thumb side) sort of wraps over th ulna. This is not as strong a mechanical allignment as if the rotation were stoped with the fist in the vertical position (vertical punch).

Another problem with this punch arises when it is directed upward, say to the chin of a taller opponent, or diagonally as in a cross punch. Experiment with this and you will note that often due to the relative angles of fist to target the first two knuckles are taken out of the lead. This means you are likely to land the punch with either the fingers or the last two (smaller) knuckles. That, of course, is more likely to injure you than your opponent.

Done as a straight punch, from point of origin, this punch has its' uses. But by and large I prefer the vertical punch. I suppose there may be some uses for chambering as well, but I don't like to do it.

[gazza99]

-Thanks Rogue! Ill add those 3 to my tally!

-Thanks for further explaining my rants DNC101!

Royal dragon:

RE:"Since my reverse punch is comming from a chamber, it is UNDER thier veiw and they never see it comming, especially since they are watching my blocking hand in fear that it's directed to thier face next."

Have you ever heard the phrase "assumption is the mother of all fu(kups?" If you can teach me how to make one arm invisible please describe it, otherwise I can see this move coming a mile away! Usually I just plow through the blocking arm attacking the person while their "under" view reverse punch is chambered, then I pummel them untill they hit the ground since people who insist on using the reverse punch have zero structure and sensitivity.
Oh, and thats if I give them energy to play with. If I suspect the person has the skills, then they wont get the chance to do what you described anyhow.

regards
Gary

[dnc101]

Originally posted by gazza99
If you think you are sacrificing speed for power with this punch, think again. Gary

In the external arts, speed is the primary component of power. Anything that inhibits speed robs power. As for punching from a chambered position, that prohibits quickness. A punch should be thrown from point of origin. If you can't get enough power in your punch from where you are, use another weapon. Drawing back first is wasted motion and a major telegraph. Rechambering after the punch leaves no guard, you are open (as g99 also pointed out).

There are also an anatomical reasons the reverse punch is inefficient. The punch gets its' name from the fact that it traditionally starts from the chamber with the palm up. Then as it clears the body the fist turns over so the palm is down, so it is reversed. If you do that slowly and watch your forearm you will see that the radius and ulna (the two bones in your forearm) rotate around each other. The radius (on the thumb side) sort of wraps over th ulna. This is not as strong a mechanical allignment as if the rotation were stoped with the fist in the vertical position (vertical punch).

Another problem with this punch arises when it is directed upward, say to the chin of a taller opponent, or diagonally as in a cross punch. Experiment with this and you will note that often due to the relative angles of fist to target the first two knuckles are taken out of the lead. This means you are likely to land the punch with either the fingers or the last two (smaller) knuckles. That, of course, is more likely to injure you than your opponent.

Done as a straight punch, from point of origin, this punch has its' uses. But by and large I prefer the vertical punch. I suppose there may be some uses for chambering as well, but I don't like to do it.

[dnc101]

I edited a typo and got reposted.

Gazza, what RD is reffering to is what we call an obscure zone. The weapon is deployed from a position where it isn't readily seen. For example, an uppercut that contours close to the opponents body and under his guard travels in an obscure zone- his view of the weapon is at least partially blocked by his own chin and possibly his guard. Of course, you can still readily see his body allignment and observe his shoulder drop and get a pretty good idea what's comeing. Same with that chambered fist. You know it's there and generally where it's aimed.

As for the fight you describe, RD, I'll quote Remmington from the movie 'The Ghost and the Darkness':"They got a sayin' in prize fighting, 'Everyone's got a plan till they've been hit.' "

[SevenStar]

I've never had a problem with the punch. Admittedly, it is easier to see than the vertical punch, but I've seen no real difference in power. As for the chamber, I've never chambered all the way to my hip even though it's trained that way. So, you have the same reservations about a boxer's straight right? (aside from chambering at the hip)

[dnc101]

Yes, I do have the same reservations about this punch. Boxers wrap their hands withtape untill they are hard as a rock, and they wear heavy padded gloves. But when they try to throw the same punch on the street, they often prove my point by breaking their hands. I recall someone posting a link on that topic a while back. I'll see if I can find it.

[lotusleaf]

It's just part of the many punches that you and I learn and it's a useful tool. Just like rogue, the reverse punch to me is thrown with the rear arm. I use it for combos, but not too much since left arm speed isn't up to par w/ a lot of my other classmates. I fight w/ my good side forward so my left arm is weaker. I like throwing rear hooks though and uppercuts but it's mainly used for blocking and redirecting.

[dnc101]

and if I could remember who originally posted it I'd give them credit. Any how, here it is:

www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/evolution.html

[Crimson Phoenix]

Gazza...I know this kind of thread will always display some pros and cons, dependending on peoples's style, background, body type, sensibility and 1000000 other factors...
And indeed, you seem some who like the reverse punch, and some who don't...both come out with sensible arguments too...
But there's something that bugged me in your post, it's the presence of both:
"assumption is the mother of all fu(kups?" and "people who insist on using the reverse punch have zero structure and sensitivity"...Now isn't that an enormous assumption (and dangerous one as well)? I mean...there HAS to be some people proficient with their reverses punches and with sensitivity and structure...xingyi's pau and beng quan are technically reverse punches...

[Merryprankster]

dnc101,

I've been round and round about this issue. Since nobody's actually looked into it for real, I don't think we can really conclude anything. The best we can do is offer some possibilities and say we don't know what the answer is. Here are the possibilities I can think of, along with my own comments, not that they matter:

1. The palms down straight punch is biomechanically less stable than the vertical punch. Show me where this has been demonstrated as true and I'll concede the point. One random article in black belt magazine, or "sifu said," doesn't cut it at all.

2. Choice of target. Hitting people in the head with a closed fist may be a bad idea. If you hit them on the top of the skull or on the forehead, you might break your hand. That's a pretty solid area.

3. Boxers may actually hit harder than most other artists. It's possible that a boxing punch is so biomechanically powerful that it has a tendency to overwhelm the ability of most people's bones to absorb stress. Plus, they learn to harness that power because they wear handwraps and gloves and don't know where their "limit," is, so to speak.

4. Improper hit. Anybody who hits a target full force, palms down, but lands with the last two knuckles instead of the first two, has a good chance of breaking their hand. I've hit the pads wrong with 4 oz grappling gloves before and it hurt. Don't give me a line about "training that out," of your system, although I agree that helps. Even if you're great at it, you have a good chance of screwing up. We're all human and make mistakes like that. Actually, now that I think about it, the guy didn't push into my punches properly to create a flat surface to strike, and it made my shots land on the last two knuckles, but same end result until I started compensating for that...

5. Boxers don't condition their hands right. Who knows? Might be, might not be. I couldn't tell you, and I doubt anybody could tell you for certain.

6. The person punching had brittle hands. Happens all the time.


What I'm really willing to bet, is that nobody has a clue what the right answer is on this issue, but many have ideas. I'm personally all for the idea of smacking a solid object with your fist being dangerous.

Lastly, one side note--boxers typically do NOT practice with their hands wrapped like they have it done in a pro fight--ie, it's not a mass of tape. Secondly, there are rules about taping that prevent it from being layered like a cast to create that kind of tape job. I personally believe it's just a piece of safety equipment, like my knee brace, or my shin pads or my cup. I throw a lot of punches at boxing, full power, into a bag or pads, or even my opponent. Not every shot is going to land perfectly. While the chance of serious injury is slight, the chance is finite and real and will PREVENT me from practicing for awhile, should I actually injure myself. This is a useful precaution, IMO to keep me practicing. That's just my opinion though. I realize that plenty of arts practice bareknuckle pad and bag work.

Then again--maybe they aren't hitting it as hard as a boxer does--but AGAIN, we don't actually know the answer to that.

And--I hate a reverse punch chambered at the hip. It can be absorbed rather easily with the elbow in a cover similar to a boxers, and now your head's open to counter punching. But that's just one side of the coin. Royal seems able to make it work fine.