This One Should Get People Riled Up...

[Chang Style Novice]

Rev. Stroupe: "Do you love Jesus, Bobby?"
Bobby: "With all my heart!"
Hank: "Buddhist liar!"
---------------------
Peggy: "I always knew my little boy was destined for greatness. To be perfectly honest, I didn't see Lama coming."
---------------------
Peggy, reading bumper sticker: "My child is an Honor Student at Tom Landry Middle School" changes lanes and pulls up alongside car with bumper sticker "OH YEAH!? WELL MY CHILD IS GOD TO BILLIONS OF ASIANS!"
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Bobby: "Why do friends fight?"
Bill: "His finger is stuck in my beer!"
Dale: "He dared me!"<
Bobby: "You fight with each other, yet you want the same thing."
Bill and Dale: "SO?!"
Bobby: "Mr. Gribble, I want you to completely relax, and imagine your finger sliding effortlessly out of the beer can."
Dale: "That is the dumbest thing I have ever..." realizes his finger has come free, flips up clip ons
Bill: sips beer

[GeneChing]

nexus - The circle is one of Buddhism's most dominate symbols, but it is just a symbol. My comment was more a koanic reply to the early comment about linearity.

braden - Christianity without Christ - interesting concept, eh? Ever study Gnosticism?

[Dreadnaught]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Rev. Stroupe: "Do you love Jesus, Bobby?"
Bobby: "With all my heart!"
Hank: "Buddhist liar!"
---------------------
Peggy: "I always knew my little boy was destined for greatness. To be perfectly honest, I didn't see Lama coming."
---------------------
Peggy, reading bumper sticker: "My child is an Honor Student at Tom Landry Middle School" changes lanes and pulls up alongside car with bumper sticker "OH YEAH!? WELL MY CHILD IS GOD TO BILLIONS OF ASIANS!"
---------------------
Bobby: "Why do friends fight?"
Bill: "His finger is stuck in my beer!"
Dale: "He dared me!"<
Bobby: "You fight with each other, yet you want the same thing."
Bill and Dale: "SO?!"
Bobby: "Mr. Gribble, I want you to completely relax, and imagine your finger sliding effortlessly out of the beer can."
Dale: "That is the dumbest thing I have ever..." realizes his finger has come free, flips up clip ons
Bill: sips beer

heheheh. I wish I could've seen that episode.

[Nexus]

Dear apoweyn,

Forming ones understanding of reality based upon preconceived notions it to live within the illusion of the preconceived notions. There is a reality that exists beyond our preconceived notions of 'reality' and to experience reality as it truly is, we must set aside our concepts. The concept of reality is a concept, yet reality itself is not a concept. This paradox cannot be 'solved' as Braden said, because people wan't evidence and analytical information to support their insecurity.

I will use a "what if scenario" here as an example:
If it is true that there is no past or future, and that the 'Now' is all that exists, then past lives and future lives would be illusions. Because however, the intellect cannot analytically confirm whether this is accurate or not, the 'ego' (our sense of 'I, Me) which bases its understanding on what it 'knows intellectually' is left unknowing or unsure. In that, it decides that it can either take this information on 'faith or belief' or deny it as it does not have acceptable 'proof' at this time.

Because of the above example, we can see that there is no way of proving or disproving past lives to someone whose understanding is based upon what can and cannot be confirmed by the intellect. This is because the intellect is not the source of wisdom or compassion. This statement is a generalization although a fair one to say as I am sure that you know of a few very intelligent people who lack the wisdom or compassionate nature.

The topic of karma is a hot-topic in buddhism, and it is another piece of the puzzle that the intellect tries and fails to solve. Thus, it forms conclusions which are impartial that provide a way of navigating "karma" the best way. This is how rules, regulations and customary practices come into effect. The Ten Commandments in Judaism. The Buddhist Precepts.

Karma is something you have learned about. It is a 'concept', not an absolute, and it allows for a person to understand that what they do and what others do has an effect on the 'whole.'

Yet we also have buddhism saying that upon enlightenment, a person breaks their karmic bonds. The paradox with Karma is that karma is what holds someone back from enlightenment and also what allows a person to attain it.

Originally posted by apoweyn


nexus,

is this directed at me? i'm not sure i understand. i'm forming my understanding based on what i've been told about buddhism. reincarnation sounds circular to me. if i'm misunderstanding this, then how about bagging the condescension and explaining it to me. and if you're unsure yourself, how about saying so. contradiction within a spiritual tradition is hardly a new idea, yeah?

i've heard snippets about their being no past and no future. only the present. but that doesn't exactly gel with the notion of karma. actions have repercussions. if there's no concern for the future, though, who cares? all life is sacred because of reincarnation. that bug might once have been a person. or may be a person in the future. but if there's no past and no future to concern yourself with, then it's just a bug. bombs away.

see what i'm getting at?


stuart b.

[fa_jing]

The relation to the Thou is immediate.

Between I and Thou there is no terminology, no preconception and no imagination, and memory itself changes, since it plunges from singularity into the whole.

Between I and Thou there is no purpose, no greed and no anticipation; and longing itself changes, since it plunges from dream into appearance.

All means are impediment. Only where all means fall to pieces, encounter happens.
(I and Thou) - Martin Buber

[apoweyn]

thank you nexus. that was infinitely more helpful.

there is a reality. and there is our perception of reality. i understand that. there is a concern that we get too wrapped up in the concept and loose sight of the truth that the concept is supposed to illuminate. yeah?

but i believe that the 'no yesterday and no tomorrow' thing is just such a concept. i believe that we've gotten too wrapped up in that idea when a lot of buddhism (and, indeed, common sense) speaks to the contrary.

think about the four noble truths.

1) all life is suffering. okay.
2) suffering is caused by attachment. now we're getting into causality. and causality necessitates that there is not just the here and now. there is what came before and its repercussions on the now. and then there's now and its repercussions on the future. if you give up attachments, then you'll end the suffering. such statements aren't possible if the idea of no past and no future are taken literally.
3) you can end the suffering by giving up attachments. see above.
4) you can do this by following the eightfold path (right this, right that... )

again, the eightfold path gets into causality and a guide for appropriate action.

personally, i don't think i believe in reincarnation. i think it's a logical, albeit greatly exaggerated, extension of the idea that actions have repercussions. and, not counting on the inherent altruism of humanity, the system holds that those repercussions will be revisited on you not only in this life, but in the next. it's a very similar moral framework to that found in christianity's notion of heaven and hell.

i think these belief systems get more and more complicated as they try to perform more and more governance. if we could just say, "do the right thing for the sake of it; it'll be cool, trust me" we'd be all set. but it takes more than that the larger the scale gets. and in time, as you said, people have a tighter grip on the concept than on the reality that gave rise to it.


stuart b.

[apoweyn]

nexus,

i'm getting snarky. please forgive me.

i'm fairly familiar with buddhism and slightly moreso with its predecessor hinduism. so i see where you're coming from. but i'm not buying it completely. so i'm inclined to ask questions.

hopefully you can take them in the manner in which they're intended rather than the manner in which they're sometimes delivered.


stuart b.

[Dreadnaught]

Dreadnaught says "blah blah blah blah!"

[Nexus]

Dear Apoweyn,

What other questions do you have?

If you bought what I have said completely, you would be an idiot. It is important to see the truth for oneself, not to take anothers truth as your own. That is the heart of what I have been saying all along.

[Dreadnaught]

Apoweyn,

Like I said before, I like Buddhism, and have been studying it a little bit. These are some of my ideas on karma and rebirth based on my interpretations of Buddhist teaching I have been exposed to.

It's funny, it seems almost everybody is willing to accept the doctrine of karma. It's even become a regular word for people who otherwise have no clue about Buddhism or Hinduism (albeit used sometimes wrongly). You hear people mention all the time about "creating bad karma" etc. I think karma is easy to accept because its an existentialist idea. A lot of us like to believe we author our own destinies, we WANT to take responsibility for our actions.

But when rebirth comes into it, we find it very hard to believe and for good reason. Most of us can't see outside the bounds of our memory (which itself is a pretty biased filter) and our projection of the future. Let alone seeing outside out own birth and death. However, we do see that definate beginning (our birth) and a definate end (our death) and we accept it. I think that this has caused us to apply the idea that we have a definate beginning and end to everything else we observe. (ie. ideas of the "big bang" and creation etc.) The funny thing however is, sometimes when we realize we are mortal, and we get rid of the definate end. We believe in an eternal life after death. Theres no proof of this, the only proof of it is that someone said it before, and I'm saying it now. But some of us choose to accept that proof. I think rebirth follows the logic that if there's life after death, then theres life before birth. Once again, there is no proof of this. This is just a concept that we rationalized. It answers the question why we should be good. I think that deep down we want to be good anyways, but still we need a reason.

So a lot of people, even Buddhists have accepted karma, but dismissed rebirth. However, I feel that in Buddhism, the two are inseperable. I think that if you dismiss one but explore the other, you will be definately limiting yourself. Of course, anyone who does like karma but not rebirth is welcome to check into it. Just don't dismiss it entirely. In fact, we shouldn't dismiss anything we hear entirely, or accept anything we ever hear entirely. Not until we've checked into it ourselves.

The reason why I think they are inseperable is because without an understanding of rebirth, the understanding of karma is incomplete. If you accept karma, then you must accept that causes always create effect. Karma does not mean that some actions will create an effect but others won't. Belief in karma takes randomness out of the equation.

The problem with applying this belief to only the framework of our birth and death is that we won't see the effects of many things we've caused. If the effect doesn't happen in this life then where does it go? It can't simply disappear.

An example of this is someone who commits murder and gets away with it. If you acceept karma, then obviously you must accept that commiting the murder of a fellow human being creates very heavy karma. However, there are cases of people who commit murder, are not punished, and live out the rest of their lives in relative comfort. Where does the karma go? You can say "well maybe they felt real bad, and that was the manifestation of their karma" but I don't think so. Surely committing murder would cause heavier karma than stealing a chocolate bar when you're little. Certainly it creates a very definate, real, effect.

And vice versa for people who do a lot of good but receive no reward in this life. So we apply the law of karma to the causes and the effects that we can see. We can't see beyond this birth and death so we apply our understanding of karma to what happens in between. Even then, a lot of times we still can't see the effects we cause.

The belief is that through practicing Buddhism, you will see more clearly the cause and effect you create. Eventually you will see the cause and effect you create beyond your own birth and death.

Maybe that doesn't tell you anything you don't already know. hahahah. Anyways, I think sometimes having these "concepts" helps you guide your own life when you might otherwise be lost.

[Nexus]

Dear Dreadnaught,

When you smash your thumb with a hammer, is that a result of karma?

[Dreadnaught]

Originally posted by Nexus
Dear Dreadnaught,

When you smash your thumb with a hammer, is that a result of karma?

I would say yes, because that is the result of carelessness because your mind wasn't on the task at hand, but rather, caught up in the maze of distracting thoughts. The Buddha would not hit his thumb with a hammer.

[Nexus]

I would say yes, because that is the result of carelessness because your mind wasn't on the task at hand, but rather, caught up in the maze of distracting thoughts. The Buddha would not hit his thumb with a hammer.

If the Buddha hit thumb with a hammer, would he become unenlightened?

[Dreadnaught]

Originally posted by Nexus


If the Buddha hit thumb with a hammer, would he become unenlightened?

The Buddha cannot become unenlightened. If a Buddha could become unenlightened, what point would there be to becoming a Buddha?

[Nexus]

What is the point of becoming a Buddha?