This One Should Get People Riled Up...

[MightyB]

Someone asked if Enlightenment just happened and if it could happen to anybody.

I say yes. I would also say that anybody training or studying for enlightenment is wasting their time and money.

Enlightenment, if it exists, doesn't come gradually. It's supposably all at once in what the Japanese call "Satori". The Chinese would call it "Mon Gei" (or "No Mind") in Cantonese. It really is thought without reflection or consequence. It's having the mind in the here and now.

People tend to really get peaved off when I say this, so here's some food for thought...

Bhodhidharma, Damo, Ta Mo, whatever the heck you want to call him, stated that (paraphrase) "if you see Buddha, it's not Buddha. If you feel Buddha, it's not Buddha..." This is to suggest that trying to achieve enlightenment through training is a waste of time because you would then be actually trying to grasp it which is exactly contradictory to what enlightenment is supposed to be- A mind that doesn't hold on to anything so that it is free to exist and understand everything.

So, can enlightenment happen to anyone? Yes, but it's going to happen in the course of that person's being without them really trying to do anything. It could happen anytime. It's just a matter of waking up and seeing things for how they are, and you can't buy that.

So what do all you Chi-Hippies think?



The B

[ewallace]

Totally disagree. You must walk in circles upon the tallest mountains in china and chant mantras to reach enlightenment. Geez I thought everyone knew that.

[SevenStar]

I thought you had to jump off of an 11 story building. If you live, you prove yourself worthy and become enlightened

[fa_jing]

I thought enlightenment was when you lost 50 pounds or something.

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm not really sure what Enlightenment is supposed to be exactly, but from what little I've read, some people reach it accidentally and without effort, and others work hard at it and achieve it that way.

Hardly seems fair, though. I tend toward the "Bobby Lama" theory - most folks who are enlightened probably don't know it, and it's a lot less special than some let on.

[Cody]

No difficulty here. The business of enlightenment isn't going to get rich from me.

No-mind, in my view, is another type of consciousness, of experiencing being. It can involve acting without acting. I think of it as the essence of our humanity, or a unity between reason and the primal as a functional entity. The self. It involves a surrender of sorts. The awareness might not be on a conscious level, but the shift in consciousness is. People go about this in different ways. If one doesn't follow the correct way for one's self and with the necessary openness, it won't happen no matter how much effort is expended.
Enlightenment? I don't even think on it as such. Into which construct am I enlightened? to "see" what I have been told to expect? No. This is not something I aspire to.

Cody

[apoweyn]

i do disagree.

enlightenment, as described by philosophers throughout various cultures, is sudden in the sense that when it finally happens, everything changes. everything feels new and somehow more vibrant. that sort of transition, if you believe, is bound to feel sudden regardless of what went into making it happen.

however, i can't think of any instances of 'enlightenment' in which certain conditions weren't set ahead of time. take siddhartha gautama, for example. the man we generally refer to as buddha. (yeah, i know that he's not the only buddha in the mahayana tradition, but you know what i'm saying.) according to legend, he leaves his palace and sits under a tree to attain enlightenment.

here's the thing though: it's not like leaving the palace and sitting under a tree was gautama's 'routine.' he didn't just sit under his favorite tree doing whatever princes do under trees when BANG he understood all. prince gautama felt a sense of unrest, left the palace, got a dose of realism in town, and decided not to return to the familiarity and comfort of the palace. he disciplined himself to sit under a tree, eliminate attachments to wealth, status, consequence, and so on. and in time, he was enlightened.

that's not nearly the same thing as just happening.

I would also say that anybody training or studying for enlightenment is wasting their time and money.

including every monk from every culture? hindu brahman, buddhist monks, jewish and christian mystics, etc.?

then... who is enlightened? even the relatively unconventional daoists had a process. an exercise. they removed themselves from the things that, in their view, prevented understanding.

besides, if training is a waste of time, why are their teachers? why did laozi write down his teachings? or zhuangzi? or bodhidharma?

Bhodhidharma, Damo, Ta Mo, whatever the heck you want to call him, stated that (paraphrase) "if you see Buddha, it's not Buddha. If you feel Buddha, it's not Buddha..." This is to suggest that trying to achieve enlightenment through training is a waste of time because you would then be actually trying to grasp it which is exactly contradictory to what enlightenment is supposed to be- A mind that doesn't hold on to anything so that it is free to exist and understand everything.

hmm... no, i don't think that is what it suggests. what it does suggest is avoidance of getting too wrapped up in the particulars and losing sight of the real thing. if you're so concerned about seeing the buddha, you're wrapped up in the objective. in that sense, i agree with you. you're no longer open to the truth. but that doesn't mean that there aren't practices and exercises that help to retool your view of things. people are in a certain state right now. and the buddhists, daoists, hindus, christians, etc. may not agree wholeheartedly on the specifics of that state. but they all seem to agree that things can be done to rectify that state. whether the plan is to renounce worldly affairs, renounce society and its complications, renounce sin, etc. there are actions to be taken.

the stage has to be set. and setting that stage is the internalization and performance of training. the guy that goes to work in an office all day, comes home and watches hours of television while eating cheeseburgers is probably not setting that stage. unless you know any enlightened, cheeseburger-eating, television-watching corporate executives.

in a sense, i agree with you. but i think you've oversimplified it a little.


stuart 'never been called a qi hippie' b.

[Ryu]

*clap clap clap*

Ap, that was a beautiful post. My thoughts almost exactly.

Ryu

[KC Elbows]

When I was a kid, I was enlightened. I went to eat what I thought was gonna be some tasty chocolate, and it was baking chocolate. I realized that foil wrappers don't always mean tasty sweet treats, which saved me from eating a builion[sp] cube.

Years later, I was enlightened again. It was like a flash! One day, I liked Metallica, and the next, I thought they were sort of doing the same thing over and over, and that thing annoyed me.

I finally became fully enlightened at a chinese restaurant. I ate all of the cashew chicken so that others would not have to suffer all of that bad karma.

I would imagine that someone who worked harder at enlightenment would become more enlightened than I, and someone who worked harder but smarter would become more enlightened than the person who just worked harder. Isn't that how everything else works?

[DelicateSound]

"Enlightened" to me is a stage where you feel completely at peace with the world. No worries.

And as I'm down to 3 Newcastle Brown's and half a plate of Oatcakes, I'm way out of the running.

[guohuen]

That's one of the best descriptions of the process I've ever read KC.

[apoweyn]

cheers ryu.

[yenhoi]

I dont know.

I think ap is very on target, but I would assume people who are _really_ "enlightened" wouldent really talk about it, or go about writing things up for other people to follow, trying to show others the way, or open others 3rd eye, etc.

Maybe im just wary of huge organizations with lots of rules and lots of 'older' people.

[MightyB]

Dam n good post Apoweyn. Dam n Good.

Although KC may have you beat.

[apoweyn]

thanks mightyb.

but, yeah, KC has me beat. i can live with that.



stuart b.