RE: Anyone in here use Tai Chi in Self-defense?

[Liokault]

"Dodging" is not part of the taiji principles. The goal is to yield and deflect and to listen and stick, not to dodge. The word dodge implies more of a jumpy or nervous reaction rather then listening and yielding. Of course I still end up dodging plenty in sparring, I just mean "dodging" is a bad way to think of what you should be doing.

If any one in your new tai chi class talks like this walk away and keep looking!!

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
I made it 3 rounds with an amateur pro boxer using Taiji.

Wow! Those amatuer pro's are really hard to come by, in any sport.

[Water Dragon]

Guy Solis. Do a web search smart @ss

[taijiquan_student]

Liokault.

Could you explain your post a little more please? I don't want to get in a flame war here. All I said was that dodging implies more of a nervous reaction while sticking and deflecting is more ideal.

My school is just fine, by the way, Liokault. My teacher can use his taiji to fight, we spar full contact, we train everything in the system with martial intent, and there is no new-age hippie mentality at the school at all. If the word "yield" comes up in a discussion of taiji and you think "tree-hugging hippie cra.p" I suggest you rethink your training method.

p.s. I don't mean this in a rude way (well, maybe a little confrontational), and I'm not criticizing your school or Dan. I know of him and that he won that full-contact thing back in the day.

Actually, a student of Dan's in the UK recently attended my schools' Jian festival way out in Estonia this July. We had a great time, he showed us his form and some of Dan's stuff, and we showed him our stuff. I don't know if he's at the same school as you, but if you know Kie tell him everyone at Great River says hello. I look forward to your reply.

[CD Lee]

Water, that is really cool. It would be very difficult to fight an amataer boxer that is any good. They use sound fighting principles just like we try to do. The jab is a very difficult weapon to counter. I feel that jab is the most diffucult technique to overcome, due to the fact that they pull it back so quicly, and it is not a full power blow.

I take it by your description of the format, that you were probably not allowed to throw or grapple? In your situation, I would have tried to throw or grapple, or...if the we could not, get tired and get knocked out.

I'm no fool. I know I could not go three rounds sport fighting right now. I could go 45 seconds doing the real thing with good strong energy, using western boxing, but then the heart rate would surge, and the arms would sag, and BAM! BTW, 45 seconds is a LONG time against an untrained person. Plenty of time do some serious damage, or get away.

I am not at a level that I could use Xingyi in a fight with a real boxer in a match situation.

MAJOR KUDOS.

[Water Dragon]

Thanks, but don't give me too much credit This is more of a "It took me longer than I thought it would to get my @ss beat because of Taiji" story then a "Look how bad I am" story. The only thing I'm really proud of is the caliber of the man that whooped my @ss

At least I lasted longer than the other guy he fought that night. He went down in about 20 seconds.

[Water Dragon]

Oh yeah, I couldn't do it now either. This was back in 2000 when I was in better shae and still. After the fight, I threw up. He was barely breathing hard. The conditioning in those guys is unbeleivable until you go up against it.

[Liokault]

"Dodging" is not part of the taiji principles. The goal is to yield and deflect and to listen and stick, not to dodge. The word dodge implies more of a jumpy or nervous reaction rather then listening and yielding. Of course I still end up dodging plenty in sparring, I just mean "dodging" is a bad way to think of what you should be doing.

My problem with your post is that it drags tai chi down into weird ofton non self explantary terminology. I belive this sort of thing is draging tai chi down and gives guys why have nothing else the opertunity to sound like they know what they are doing (im not refering to you here).

To me jumpy/nervous reaction sounds a lot faster and more practicle than listening and yielding even if at the end of the day itis the same thing!!

Also feel free to criticize dan...hell I do all the time.....I think he expects it.

[Water Dragon]

I think what Taiji Student is getting at is this:

The way you explain/describe something changes the way you physically do it. "Dodge" has implications that will make the motion jerky,scattered, jumpy, etc. This can get your clock leaned real quick.

"Yield" on the other hand gives the implication of a smaller, smoother, more relaxed movement which is the goal.

Although in essence, they really are the same thing. Sort of

Or...
When I was first taught a straight punch. I was taught to "grab my finger" while the teacher stuck his finger in front of his chest. Next command was, "Pretend my fingers in the middle of my chest and grab my finger" You get the idea.

word association can be a helluva teaching tool.

[Happy]

I glad to see a lot of helpful replies to my post. I hope I didn't stir up any trouble here, seems like some people are mad at each other. I'm happy to be learning Yang Tai Chi as a Martial Art. I can allready see a lot of differn't moves being used in fighting.
Here is a real Happy TRUE Story. I think you guys will like.....
I'm 2nd generation in my family to be learning Yang Tai Chi. My late Uncle use to practice outside my house when I was young. I remember that someone on our street took Karate and came over to our house because he wanted to spar with my late Uncle. My Uncle used "push" to wing this guy up and back a few feet. Totaly confused was this Karate Guy, being how he hit the ground and after that, and the match was over. I know that a push isn't recommended in a street fight, but I know that Tai Chi can be used effectivly in a fight.
Thanks again for all the replies to my post. I hope everyone in this thread are alright with each other.
Happy.

[Scotorabie]

In my opinion, Taiji can be applied in a myriad of ways on multiple levels of self-defense. In the world we inhabit today, it is far more useful in terms of self-defense against stress, disease, and orthopaedic problems than it could possibly be for fighting. However, in my opinion the majority of these benefits are so relevant to practicing the art as a fighting style that the two are relatively inseperable with the later being a motivator through which the former may be achieved as well.

I also believe that true self-defense has been a concept with realitivity little to do with actually fighting throughout the history of un-armed martial arts in particular. For example, even a millenium ago before projectile weapons were the main constituent of personal destruction, individual bravery and even individual skill had much less relevance to warfare than did the overall prowess of the group. Even then, personal combat was likely to be dominated by the use of weaponry and group tactics. I believe a quote from Douglas Wiles' book "Tai Chi's Ancestors: the Making of an Internal Martial Art" summates the relevance of individual combat ability (or self-defense as we like to refer to it) well when he qutoes a famous Chinese general as referring to skilled martial artists as "useless on the battlefield." The fact that we fight in groups and rely on technology is not a new concept, and neither is the concept of fighting ability having much less relevance to personal self-defense than other forms of self-protection.

In conclusion, if your question is "can you use Taiji for self-defense" the answer of anyone who can improve their well-being should be a unanimous "yes!" as the side-effects of training and their protective attributes in other fields is, in fact, the most important feature they provide.

[wiz cool c]

i used a technique the other day. I am not sure of the name of it i just started studying chen tai chi two mounths ago. Its the move where you push or strike to the chest with you palm and the other hand is open palm faceing the ground near your thie. I work in a gym and one of the wieght rooms leads to a basket ball court. As soon as i left the weight room a ball was flying twards my face and i lifted my right hand and struck the ball with my palm and sent it flying away.

[HuangKaiVun]

I agree with Scotorabie's points, but I do believe that learning how to fight is just as necessary now as it has ever been.

I teach women, and they are VERY conscious of the need for self defense. Every day they step foot outside their houses (and often INSIDE), they run the risk of being victims of violent crimes.

Groups are great, but people can get attacked nowadays on an individual basis. My own student was the victim of violent crime, and she was able to fight her way out. Whenever she was attacked, she was ALONE.

Tai Chi, done properly, does teach combat skills. Dodging and listening are two of the many skills that form this illustrious and effective martial art.

[Subitai]

If I may add a few cents WaterDragon,

About conditioning, It wasn't so much that he was in better shape, it was more likely due to:

# 1. You being in his element. In here/there he is comfortable and is/was undoubtibly breathing NATURALLY.

...I can almost bet, if you can remember or not that you were more uncomfortable and were HOLDING YOUR BREATH under many of the exchanges. That will take anybodies wind way, irregardless.

who ever is in the most comfortable position is always at an advantage.

People ask me what I would preffer?
** Supreme conditioning or Mental clarity(ie breathing natural, not nervous and very comfortable)

I say I'd rather be at 50% of my best condition and have perfect mental clarity for the fight, as opposed to Supreme conditioning and have the belly jitter bugs or any sort of anxiety.

It's true, any way you look at it. I prove it for myself often. It is the state we all try to achieve...yet it is difficult to master.

ease on,
"O"

[gazza99]

"Anyone in here use Tai Chi in self-defense"

Yes

What else is Tai chi chuan (the grand ultimate FIST) for? -Good health is by-product of good Neijia training.

Gary