Sticking- from grappling thread

[AndrewS]

Here's an interesting question to the crowd. What is 'stick' and why is it important? How do reconcile sticking with avoiding chasing hands?

My present take- 'stick' involves fixing a point of contact with your pressure and position. If the other person has decent position and pressure you stay with their pressure as it comes (absorbing) and eating up their space as it goes (expanding). If they lose/change position or pressure in this equilibrium they break stick if your position and pressure are constantly good- this is how holes come in poon sao. This idea expands in application when you 'stick' and move behing a fixed point of contact, keeping your position/pressure ideal, while destroying the other person's advantage- for instance, in basic poon sao, slightly shifting your weight to your right leg while maintaining pressure and 'sticking' at the wrists, creating a shallow angle with which to wedge into the other person, destroying their positions by jamming them into one another and collapsing them, having kept them 'sticking' for instance to your bong- using the friction of flesh contact to pull them off center as you go in.

Training stick- these days I try to stay at the wrist. When working technically, static friction on wrist to wrist contact should not be broken.

Just some thoughts,

Andrew

[S.Teebas]

What is 'stick' and why is it important?

Stick is just before push. Important so you can apply body mass - instead of using localised muscle for power.

How do reconcile sticking with avoiding chasing hands?

Pick a better target.

[AndrewS]

Uh, you have me a little confused here-

within the poon sao platform - tan/bong and fook contact- how does stick come before push. Why is sticking important to apply body mass- do you mean in the hit, within pressure in contact, what?

Later,

Andrew

[S.Teebas]

within the poon sao platform

whats a poon sao? ...im not farmiliar with the chinese words.

how does stick come before push.

You asked what stick is, thats my definition for you. Think about it.

Why is sticking important to apply body mass

So your mass knows where to go. You body has to actually stick, not just you brain imagining you are sticking.... which is quite common.

[AndrewS]

Basic rolling- each person in either tan/bong or fook.

Later,

Andrew

[black and blue]

"How do reconcile sticking with avoiding chasing hands?"

I'm so new to Chi Sau that I shouldn't even try and answer this question.... but hey, what the heck, I'll give it a go...

IMO (for what it's worth) when in Poon Sau, if both players have ideal position both should have good coverage of the center line. This is where I retain my shapes, and keep the stick. When my opponent's structure/shapes deviate I should spring forward and attack. When this is the case, the only stick should be my fist on his/her head. So, as far as I can see, when my opponent's hands lose the center I don't chase them and try and stick - I hit. I only stick when they occupy the center line.


C'mon if you think ya hard enough!!! If I'm way off... someone tell me and save me from my... errr... myself.

[kj]

Just some coffee-time, random, fly-by comments ...

S. Teebas is correct.

We check the opponents hands/arms, but control is mainly focused on the entire opponent. The arms happen to be the connection point or "bridge" in this case.

"Pushing" or hitting doesn't occur in the plain-vanilla style rolling exercise because the partners have agreed to stay with the plain-vanilla rolling rather than to capitalize on each others' defects. Even so, part of the learning is to perceive those defects, however large or small. We learn and practice to "listen." Intent even if not played out, is also practiced.

The degree of "sticking" that occurs is a function of the partner doing likewise. If the partner does not have proper position or intent, then there is some vulnerability on their part which, outside the confines of the exercise, you would capitalize on rather than to stick or chase their hands.

Similarly, the degree of sticking in chi sau would not occur in a normal "fight" unless both are Wing Chun (or similar). Of course, if they were both Wing Chun, why would they be fighting anyway?

The rolling exercise is wasted effort and building of bad habits (for Wing Chun) without elbows and bodies correct. The deeper meaning of "sticking" requires proper positioning and intent, however "soft" or "hard" the mutual pressure may be.

When arm is in contact with opponent - said bridge being oiled, sweaty, or dry - I consider such things as ...

• Is my position and intent such that if the opponent applied more pressure, my elbows would be optimally positioned for self-protection? If not, then correct the body (everything) and elbows. [Of course there is some limit to how much pressure I can take even if well positioned, and eventually the partner/opponent might express enough that I would be required to turn. That is obviously outside the constraints of the standard poon sau/rolling exercise though.]
  
• Does the partner have elbows sufficiently positioned and with proper intent such that I would have to "force" my way in? Or do I perceive a free enough path that I could slide up their arm and past their elbow to go in? Make mental note for future use. [Once extending the chi sau to actually capitalize on errors, oil or sweat can assist this part, LOL.]
  
• Is the partner too "stiff" such that I could capitalize to uproot or off-balance them?
  
• Am I too stiff, rigid or telling such that the partner can utilize the bridge to upset me?
  
• Can I sense where the partner's center is? Can I keep my intent trained there throughout the endless dynamics of the rolling hands exercise and ever-changing hand/arm positions?
  
• Can the partner perceive my center? Can I be "relaxed" enough within my range of proper positions to hide that from him/her?

I'm not aiming to be comprehensive, but just to give exploratory examples. There are infinitely more questions along these lines, as well as issues that will vary with different partners (tall, short, narrow, wide, strong, weak, fast, slow, etc.). How can I perceive all these things and more through such a small and ever-changing contact area as the arms? [Aside for Andrew - I prefer arms to wrists, and practice quite "close."]

It is definitely not about chasing hands. It is about minimizing one's vulnerabilities and telegraphing as little information as possible while perceiving the partner's/opponent's vulnerabilities. And, eventually, how to leverage and capitalize on them. The bridge just happens to be the cooperative framework through which we do and feel these things in the rolling hands exercise.

Poon sau or luk sau is a very simple yet complex exercise. It's largely about communication, and learning to "listen" and "read" (both oneself and the partner/opponent). The arms are transmitters. Wild, fast, strenuous rolling precludes the most profound discoveries. Chasing hands defeats the purpose. It's about the whole person, not about the hands.

Again, just some random, non-comprehensive food for thought. Coffee finished. Have a great day.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[black and blue]

"I'm not aiming to be comprehensive"

It was comprehensive enough to give me food for thought. Thanks. I've cut and pasted your comments into my "Handy Hints and Tips" word document at work.

The d@mned thing is getting so big it takes half an hour to open

[teazer]

Interesting thread - There's some bits I agree with 100%, others I agree are applicable at times.
The "stick comes before push" phrase gives a good impression of light but firm contact level.
It's important, but there are plenty of people that stick with local power generation. Similarly there are people that do whole body things without necessarily sticking. So I would categorize it as a separate skill.

Sticking means you can cover the centerline without being on it.

From KJ's post, sticking can be forced by one side, so long as the other is committed to a fight rather than playing tag. Whether it will always help is another matter! WC draws a good line beween the need for control & the need to finish quickly.
Rolling, or even less structured sticking exercises might be valuable despite poor/alternate structure, depending on how & why. IMO, while the two are mutually promoting, sensitivity is more important the structure.

[AndrewS]

S.Teebas-

I think we're encountering some linguistic problems here. To me- pressure- force from the body into ground and partner are a sine qua non of practice (and that pressure can and should become vanishingly light as one refines certain elements). Pressure goes into the other person's central axis, through mutual arm contact. As pressures and positions meet in, say, fook to tan/bong, where is the advantage in sticking? In keeping one point? Beyond going through the pedagogical exercise of poon sao, I would say that there is an advantage to 'sticking' and a skill which can be used to manipulate people through using it, without 'chasing hands', while keeping your force into the other person through their limbs. What I'm trying to draw out, without poisoning the well, is whether or not other people perceive this too.

Kathy Jo-

your second consideration, starts to get into some of what I'm driving at with 'stick'- I would argue that in those cases where you can so easily find the way free, the other person has failed to stick.

When one person 'sticks', you trick the other into chasing hands, making them lose the center.

I'm starting to find there are games one can play with 'sticking', locking two structures together by pressure then moving mine to affect the other, staying 'stuck' together to put the other person in a bad place.

Just some thoughts,

Andrew

[S.Teebas]

…and that pressure can and should become vanishingly light as one refines certain elements

Your perception will be this, but your opponent will feel like he’s being ploughed into the earth. Your structure will somewhat absorb, sensitivity will automatically/constantly re-adjust the structure while you load up your opponent with your body mass from multiple angles. When your body feels his/her weakest structure you take that path.

Pressure goes into the other person's central axis, through mutual arm contact.

My target is constantly receiving pressure, regardless of mutual arm contact. If his arm moves, my focus stays the same and it automatically hits (I’m sure everyone is aware of this idea)

As pressures and positions meet in, say, fook to tan/bong, where is the advantage in sticking?

Your body is gathering information. Aim isn’t to stick to persons arm anyway, more a by-product of your true intention.

[AndrewS]

S. Teebas-

alright, we're seeing things differently. I agree with much that you say, though I would disagree about your opponent necessarily feeling like they're being ploughed into the earth- against someone of like skill and structure, doing that can be giving the other person too much to work with.

Even so, I am finding some interesting advantages in 'sticking', keeping adhered together, in trying to find a softer way in.

Later,

Andrew

[S.Teebas]

against someone of like skill and structure, doing that can be giving the other person too much to work with.

Agreed. sorry, I slightly deviated from the subject you were discussing. I like to relate to real life situation, how opponent feels in realtion to the force we put in them if contact is estabilished.

You are correct that chi sau should not be greedy. Both should learn.

[AndrewS]

Alright- going real world, here's application of what I'm talking about-

I close, and my opponent gets hand contact to foul my punches, one inside, one out- basic poon sao contact- while trying to go in and clinch (going for a go-behind), rather than further rush and risk letting his hands get to my body, I keep the contact point, keep my pressure in, and turn slightly, using my contact like sprockets on a gear to over extend him out, while my pressure goes further in. The fixed contact point and pressure give minimal signal to the other person- moving behind it, effectively changing the centerline, gives me an advantage. Pressure is one continuous inward flow, but 'sticking' keeping even pressure at the initial contact point allows me closer in at better mechanical advantage.

Dunno if this is clear, but it's an example of what I'm getting at in terms of using stick without chasing hands.

Take it easy,

Andrew

[teazer]

The one point of contact thing reminds me a bit of coefficients of friction (doesn't everything!?). Like a tire on the road, it has static friction, rather than kinetic. Better to 'stick' with perhaps.

A different perspective might be to make your opponent stick to you rather than the other way around. Like catching a tiger by the tail! I agree about encouraging them to chase the hands. Wouldn't that be more likely to be a fault with other WC people rather than your average fighter?