Defence when someone "shoots" in

[yuanfen]

Unless one is weightless in space or a similar environment
there has to be a ground connection. The real issue is whether
it is the best that it can be for you.

[Merryprankster]

A good question to ask might be--is getting taken down or staying on your feet more consistent with WC principles? I would suggest the latter

Red5Angel--here is an excellent demonstration/photos of a classic double leg with a lift and turn finish.

www.lesgutches.com

Click on Techniques.

Click on "Double Leg."

You'll note that he maintains good balance and posture throughout, and ends in a position that allows him to lift his opponent as if he were lifting a box. I would critique one thing, however--you'll notice his lead knee position in the third photo in the series. I prefer that knee should break the imaginary line drawn between his opponents toes. I find it rocks their weight back on their heels, or far forward on their toes better. Different strokes. *shrug* It obviously works for him.

Don't worry so much about the finish he uses--there are many ways to finish, obviously.

Now, change the "post on the shoulders" in the original photo, to "As your opponent tries to punch you, slip," and you get the picture.

Obviously, it's just a demonstration. But pay attention to how well balanced Les is. It's not so easy to knock somebody over or out who is shooting like this, and simple "redirection," is going to be futile, with the intensity and explosion of their forward drive. You have to stop their penetration of your center. That's the simple fact. How you choose to do it is up to you. If you want to try and develop the timing to knock somebody out while they come in, be my guest--but ask yourself a simple question--how many one shot knockouts are there REALLY, and do you think you can unload enough punches before they get to you and disrupt your balance? Remember--while you are fighting for your balance, you really don't have any power in your shots. They might hurt, but will they STOP the guy from getting to you? Are you willing to take that risk when you know that the other guy is unlikely to be OOC by a single blow?

Now, I can see all the people with zero grappling experience say--well, can't I just stagger my stance more and sink myself so that he can't get to my center? The answer is "Of course you can!" I've seen that as the answer to the shot repeatedly--read it, heard it, watched it demonstrated (albeit poorly, and not against a shot--a tackle). And you know what, you'd be absolutely right. He wouldn't be able to take you down with a double leg because he'd have to somehow reach your back leg through your knee and lead side and we know that won't happen unless he's beastly strong with ape long arms.

Of course, you have now just handed him your front leg, the shot changes to a sweep/swing single, and you're just as bad off as you were:

Again--go to Les Gutches site, Click on techniques, and click on "swing single," and it will give you a basic idea of what that would look like. Ignore the hand setup--it's not important here. That's my favorite single, by the way, but I use a different finish. Could you hit him in the face from the end picture? Sure. Will it hurt? Sure. Will you get taken down anyway? Unless you explain how you're going to knock out the guy or put him OOC as he's dropping you on your ass, I vote no. I'd also like to point out that once you get the single, you are CONSTANTLY moving the guy to make him hop around, pushing, pulling, jerking as you try to trip or lever him to his back. I tuck my head down to avoid getting punched, as it happens.

Hope this explains a bit. Let me know if there are more questions.

[red5angel]

Anerlich, agreed, never underestiomate anyone, ever. ALong with that however I think that it is also a good idea to look at what some responses might be from people who do not have a clue about fighting but just like to brawl.
Whle I also generally agree with your overlap, some arts overlap less then others. I also understand what you are saying about what is good strategy as compared to what is good wingchun strategy, but that is my concern, good wingchun strategy, as you know I believe tha wing chun has what it needs, you just have to look deeply to find it.

MP - Good website, I will have to go through and check out the rest of those techniques as well. As with all things I saw some openings an weaknesses that could be exploited if you knew what you were doing, and I think that is the key, knowing.
How viable do you think this is to the shoot - getting a hold on the guy shooting, whether its his neck, his ear, his shirt, whatever, while stepping back and driving his face to the ground? You mentioned he should have pretty good balance in the shoot. Also, isnt his face a little vulnerable to a knee?

[Merryprankster]

I'm glad you can see some weaknesses. I can't really. It's just about picture perfect, as a demonstration should be. I might have some personal preferences, but as far as sound technique goes it's on the money. No offense, but I really don't think you know what you're looking at. It'd be like me saying I see a weakness in somebody's WC punching defense and counterattack techniques. It's one thing for me to look at a set of "anti-grappling," techniques and make a comment, but quite another for me to, say, discuss somebody's chi sao.

In answer to your questions, no and no. You're not going to be able to stuff his face into the ground because of his posture, if you just try to step back. In fact, if you just try and step back you've handed him your front leg again--all that penetration is gone, but you've given him the single. That's what a sprawl is FOR. It gets your legs out of the way (problem one) and allows you to apply pressure in the right places in order to stuff their face down (problem two). What you are suggesting is right along with that dang redirection crap that I can't seem to get out of people's heads--you can't just "redirect," you have to redirect with intensity and bodyweight and a purpose and you can't have the other guy messing with your legs while you're doing it or your chances of success are drastically reduced. You CAN do it to a guy who shoots like crap because they've extended beyond their base, but why train that way?

As far as the knee we're looking at 1) timing, 2) balance, and 3) Anybody who's done ANY crosstraining is going to keep their hands up to protect their heads on the off chance they accidentally do catch a knee to the head. Work the percentages. I've yet to see a knee hit a guy on the way in, cleanly. I've seen sprawls that went right into knees, however, and that tends to work pretty well.

I normally don't work the ring argument because the ring and the street are different. However, in this instance, I will. Shots are always allowed, and knees to the head are allowed in many events. Not only that but the method that you described (stuffing their face to the ground) would also be allowed. If these were truly feasible methods, somebody would be doing it. But they don't. Nobody tries to time a knee on a guy coming in anymore because the chance they'll wind up on their back is far far greater than the chance of success.

Treat the sprawl like a momentary stance shift--a movement that maintains and preserves both your structure and center, rather than treating it like some sort of antithetical being and I think it will go much more smoothly.

[red5angel]

MP - I think you may have misconstrued what I am saying. I couldnt comment on his technical ability I wouldnt know what to look for, what I am saying is that any martial artist worth his weight could look at a technique someone does and see how it could be countered or nuetralized. Understand?

Stepping back. If my front leg isnt weighted, and I step back, I dont need to step back that far, and I dont need to give him my legs as the step back and the re-direction are all simultaneous.
What I dont like MP is that it sounds as if you claim the shoot is impervious to anything but grappler methods and I have a hard time believeing it. Its no offense to you personally, I just dont believe that that one move is capable of locking up anyone who isnt trained to grapple. I do believe that redirection can work, the problem is in training, and forms the basis for most of my rants on this forum. not enough people train hard enough and properly to understand how say, Wing chun can counter this sort of thing without having to learn BJJ or Judo or whatever the grappling flavor of the month is.
I will make you this deal though MP, I have some oppurtunities to check this sort of stuff out from my wing chun angle in the next six months. I will find out what I can, judge for myself and get back to you with as much detail as possible. You wont have to worry about lies or exagerations either, what purpose would that serve me? If I come to find that I need grappling training then I have no problem doing that. Just so it is understood, I dont expect to be a grappling expert or a wing chun vs grappling expert at the end of 6 months, just have a solid understanding of the basics and how wing chun can approach them.
I trust what you have to say but we all sometimes see things through our own special brand of glasses, and lately it seems that grappling has the CMA world in a strangle hold believeing that its unstoppable (not that you are coming across that way MP) and I just dont believe it.

[old jong]

A good defense...I should say ''action'' against a shoot or any other types of attacks is a perfectly timed and hard punch on the nose at the moment when the shoot action (or any other attack) is going to begin or very early after.You have to be really aware and focussed to do this in order to cut the opponent timing this way.

But, reality says that we are not always so well tuned in our actions and have lots of times to be reactive instead of active.This is why,boxers get hit even if they are training against punches all the times and wrestlers are being take down even if they are the most used to defend against these attacks.There are no magic formulas against any attacks and a good defense yesterday may not work at all today.

[gnugear]

Thanks for all the responses ... lots of good info here.

I'm not totally clear on what a "sprawl" is (I can vaguely imagine it in my head) but I'll get together with my friend and see if I can go over it with him.

We've had a good exchange so far because he hasn't experienced Wing Chun before, and he found it to be quite frustraating.

[yenhoi]

Personally, i see the sprawl as a definite form of yielding and redirection.

Personally, i cannot understand when someone uses a phrase like "grapplers method," that makes no sense whatsoever.

WC guys do not have to crosstrain in judo or BJJ. They need to train hard for all ranges. They need to sparr people from outside thier own school and from other 'styles.'

[Merryprankster]

Red--I really think you will find that stepping back just isn't going to cut it. It's not an issue of weighting--as a matter of fact, if you DON'T weight your forward leg it's that much easier to pick up.

Stepping back, taking angles-- it's just not enough against a decent shot. It's not an issue of glasses, it's an issue of mechanics. A good example might be that Braden and I just got done discussing the use of a "closed stance," for a particular application. Oddly enough it turns out we were talking about the same freaking thing with MINOR variations in execution.

Old Jong--that's why we keep our hands up. I haven't been stopped by a punch to the face yet when coming in. It hurt but I was still able to get the leg. Think in terms of stopping forward momentum.

Here's what I think--grappling is not unstoppable. I think the redirection techniques looked a lot more like "grappling," in the past than they do now because people actually got together with members from other styles and figured out how to do this stuff right. Then for some reason that stopped to some degree. You're going to go out there, and use WC and WC principles, and it's going to wind up looking an awful lot like a sprawl variation called a buckback. But it'll still be WC.

[rogue]

I get the feeling that many non-grapplers think the shoot/double leg is a diving attack. It's more of a lift and dump than a trip.

[12345]

Originally posted by reneritchie
gnugear,
If you're willing to squint and turn your head a little, and fudge the pure 100% WCK thing, you can get basic understanding of the sprawl and cross face in a *very* short time. If it makes you feel better, consider the sprawl part of the end of Biu Jee,
RR

I was going to say this too - the last section of Biu Jee is more like a Sprawl than a lot of other things I've seen it said that it refers to.

**** grapplers stealing our moves !

[12345]

Originally posted by 12345


I was going to say this too - the last section of Biu Jee is more like a Sprawl than a lot of other things I've seen it said that it refers to.

**** grapplers stealing our moves !

It censores the word d a m n!!! How pathetic.

[red5angel]

MP- you are probably right, of course but I guess I have to see for myself just so I know for sure, no offense meant. What I meant by not weighting the leg is the forward leg is not weighted so it is easy and quick to get out of the way when someone tries to sprawl.
Whats a buckback

Rogue - I think you are right. I think many people look at the sprawl as a diving tackle to the legs sort of thing. I understand its much more controlled and balanced then that.

[old jong]

''Old Jong--that's why we keep our hands up. I haven't been stopped by a punch to the face yet when coming in. It hurt but I was still able to get the leg. Think in terms of stopping forward momentum.''

I understand what you mean Merryprankster and I'm sure that you got my idea on hitting the guy with good timing.Just a little detail is not clear!...I would never punch to stop his forward momentum! Punching with that goal in mind would just be succesful in making my technique stiff and slow and turn my punch into a push!...Instead,I...(hopefully!) would punch as usual with the only intent of crushing his nose and rattling his brain enough to knock him out or hurt him enough to make him fall wherever his momentum brings him.
We have seen this many times in UFC's and Prides and we should expect to see this even more often in the future as real strikers are getting less and less nervous in face of the takedown.They know the sprawll and how to fight on the ground but they get better all the times in using their punches to defend against these tactics.
I hope that most of us in Wing Chun are training our striking arsenal like warriors are training their weapons.We have to make our punches potent like a real weapon shoud be.Do whatever needed to really punch hard.Do not rely on intellectual or conceptual beliefs or hopes that you will be able to punch effectively.A wing Chun punch should be fast and hard and it is impossible to train that without some serious work.Also, many of us are mostly playing tag when chisauing!...We are often very happy to ''touch'' the training partner even if the touch could not harm a flie!...Would'nt it be a lot better to stop playing this way and strike only when a powerful strike is possible?...Get out of the practice of playing tag.
Sorry for this preaching!...I usually do this only once a year!...Maybe!

[Merryprankster]

Red, a buckback is a sprawl where you don't get your weight on YOUR chest on their back. Your use your hands to sort of stiffarm them on the shoulders and you still use the body mechanics of the sprawl, but you are more upright at the end of it--you stay in a more standing sort of situation.

The difference between this and the "Sink your stance and redirecte them," is that you ride them back. You just use their momentum to help you get back. It's great for counterpunching, and avoids the trap of believing that you can just "root," and redirect the incoming attack. This is a situation where I really think the sport angle is the right plug--if there were a way to root out of it, wrestlers would have figured that out. I will say this--once the single leg is taken, the defending wrestler then makes their leg very heavy, and tries to create as much space between him and the attacker as possible. The defender also would try and get the attacker to try and fight him at the thigh, and not the leg. You could take this as a form of rooting if you like--it uses the same basic idea. This is kind of simplistic actually, as it depends on where they single is attacked (low or high)... but you get the idea.

I also would like to say that I'm sure that the "antigrappling," will work. IMO the "antigrappling," done properly, is going to look alot like the "grappling" defenses because good principles are good principles and transfer from art to art. Will it look 100% the same? Nope, but it'll probably look 85-90% the same. Is the answer in WC, probably, but it's going to look an awful lot, when done properly, like what the "grapplers" are already doing.

Old Jong, I knew you didn't mean a punch to the face would stop my forward progress. What I was more getting at was that I really think people SHOULD be thinking in terms of what will stop their forward progress--not, "how can I knock them out?" The reasons for this, IMO are 1. The fact that there are very few one punch knockouts, 2. If you don't knock them out or dissuade them, then they are in because you chose to sacrifice defending the takedown in favor of hitting them in the face. This is an issue of tactics, obviously, and others may disagree. I just think it's a "low percentage," kind of idea, and other tactics are better served.

I also respectfully disagree with the Pride and UFC arguments--what you are seeing is an increase in the number of guys who defend the takedown, then counterpunch when they are in danger. You are seeing a decrease in the number of guys who are trying to punch/kick/knee people on the way in, because they usually just wind up on their butts

Lastly--terminology--a shot is a leg attack. A sprawl is a method of defense to leg attacks