Could someone Explain Reverse breathing

[dre_doggX]

Some explain please... I think I have an idea but I need to be sure

[apham4]

I've just heard that it's something along the lines of when you breath in, the abdomen goes in instead of expanding out and vice versa. I also heard that it could be dangerous to practice this kind of breathing without proper training/supervision. I don't really know too much about this aspect, but I'll be definitely following the thread.

A.

[Brad]

I've just heard that it's something along the lines of when you breath in, the abdomen goes in instead of expanding out and vice versa.

Isn't that chest breathing, which is what most people do until they're told not to?

[crumble]

The other part of it is when the stomach goes in, the back expands and sort of rounds. So your chest doesn't puff out, your back does.

To do this you need to curve your spine like a "C", i.e. your shoulder and hips move toward each other and you back bows outward.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

One of the reasons for reverse breathing comes from the concept of pre-Heaven and post-heaven energies within a person. Basically the difference between the innate and acquired constitution. Innate energies provide the impetus for living and acquired energies sustain the innate ones through time. A key concept of the physical geography of pre/post Heaven are the regions of Dantain and Mingmen.

I will presume at this point that you can find the ideas of their respective locations on your own, or that they are already familiar.

On inhalation Dantian is attracted towards Mingmen, this is the heart of reverse breathing. The drawing of the centre of the lower abdomen towards the adrenal region means that this area is unavailable to affect the diaphragm. This means that, while the back must open at the level of the base of the pleural cavity (which is defined by the diaphragm/ 11th thoracic rib), the whole middle of the trunk must also open to enable the breath to be deep enough for functional respiration.

My personal experience is that this does not require an opening of the back so extreme as to form a "C" shape (I mean no critique Crumble). Its more a feeling like the kidneys are flaring to the sides, while at the same time the base of the ribcage and the epigastrium are expanding. I would also caution against doing this with strong muscular contractions. Let the focus be on the relationship between Dantian and Mingmen, with minimal force being exerted.

A practice of this type should be approached with a humble awareness. Its easy to thrust energy around the body, lots of Qigong charlatans make a living leading people through this kind of experience. However, I would advocate a kind of radical honesty with yourself about your experiences. Stay at a simple physical level for some time, and just use the mind as an observer, rather than as a task-master. Let the breathing slowly become more natural then incorporate it into forms training and moving Qigong.

[Repulsive Monkey]

the main concept is to attract the course of Qi guided by the breath to traverse upwards along the Du channel on the in-breath and then over to Du 28 on the frenelum on the inside of the upper gum and then on the out breath the qi courses down over the chest descending along the Ren Channel down to Hui Yin or Ren 1, again with the expansion of the abdomen. Og course at first it may seem like a muscular feat but this should be done in a relaxed manner more with mind intent then anything else to accompany the breath. Eventually no reall physical movement will be noticed by an observer, and I do also disagree with the making the back a "C" shape. This is an action which istaking the method too far in the wrong direction in my books!.

[Walter Joyce]

Kevin,

Great explanation. Can you expand a bit, i.e., is reverse breathing a necessary component of internal power cultivation and delivery?

Others have said that one will only have minimal power during fa jin unless reverse breathing is used both in training (say during silk reeeling) and execution. The reationale is an increase in the internal pressure being stored for release during fa jin.

Any thoughts?

Walter

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Walter Joyce

Any thoughts?

Yeah. Go push a car. What happens to your stomach?

[Walter Joyce]

WD...try not to think so long and hard about things, the strain is starting to show in your posts.

[Water Dragon]

Not familiar with the term bust a gut, eh?

Not to be confused with bust a nut, which might also be internal

[Fu-Pow]

LOL, WD!!

Question for Kevin:

In your description you refer to the dan tien moving toward the ming men. Are you talking about the actual Dan Tien or the Qi Hai acupuncture point?

Also, I do "external" as well as "internal" kung fu. Can I use this type of breathing with my "external style."

Yau Sam

[Ky-Fi]

Normal Breathing: dan tien expands on inhale, draws in on exhale.

Reverse Breathing: dan tien draws in on inhale, expands on exhale.

I was taught that if you want to do martial taiji, then you have to adopt reverse breathing, and it has to be coordinated with various postures of the Taiji form--this was stressed very early on in the training. Of course there are no iron-clad rules in combat, but in general (while using reverse breathing), you want to be inhaling for defensive applications, and exhaling for offensive applications----not necessarily a full exhale, but you will sharply expell some breath while your dan tien is pushing out. The breaths are slower and longer if you're doing the Taiji form slowly, and shorter and sharper if you're doing the form with fa jin, but the pattern is the same.

As it was explained to me in qigong terms, when you adopt reverse breathing, the qi is more forcefully circulated than it is during normal breathing. In my opinion, though, "reverse breathing" is another one of those concepts that, in modern internal arts, gets over-analyzed and elevated to the idea of a "higher level" practice more so than it really deserves. I will agree that if you're attempting some advanced qigong practice that UTILIZES reverse breathing, then yes, you should seek the guidance of a qualified qigong teacher. But as far as "reverse breathing" itself---we all do this about a hundred times a day; it's the type of thing where you just have to be sensitive as to how your body works. Our body automatically uses reverse breathing whenever we want to emit energy: when we laugh, cry, yell, sing, f@rt, sigh, lift something heavy. Every martial style and pretty much every sport makes HUGE use of reverse breathing---it's not dangerous or 'high level" at all, IMO. If you're not exhaling sharply and pushing out on your dan tien (and slightly with your anus) when you strike, then I don't believe you're going to have very powerful techniqes.

In short, my teacher also used Water Dragon's "pushing a car" example, and I think it's a very good example (except with pushing a car, the reverse breathing supports the tensed muscles over a longer period of time, making that a "hard" jin as opposed to the "soft" jins utilized more often in Taiji---but the reverse breathing serves pretty much the same purpose in both jins). Anyways, that's my understanding.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Walter,

I don't know that reverse breathing is a "necessary" part of Neigong, but is a part of all of the higher level practices that I have personal experience with. I know that my own practice improved dramatically after I began to understand this method.

In a similar vein, I don't know that there is a absolute connection between training Xiaozhoutian/small microcosmic orbit (the running of Renmai and Dumai channels on the midline of the trunk and head) and reverse breathing. Reverse breathing is usually a part of Xiaozhoutian, but Xiaozhoutian is not always part of reverse breathing. I have found that its so easy to drive the orbit with mind rather than observe it, that I usually recommend to my students that they just stick to the more mechanical aspects of the breathing for a long time. There are several medical contra-indications for active use of the mind on Renmai and Dumai. People can scr*w themselves up with this stuff.

As for this being necessary for Fajin, I am also not so certain. The Taijiquan training that I do utilizes this method (Chen and Yang styles), particularly the Chen. However, the Xinyi Liuhequan and Yin Fu Baguazhang do not adhere so strictly to the idea. Xinyi utilizes "the sound of thunder," a high YEE! sound with the whole Dantian compressing on the expression of the Jin. This is quite in contrast to the "crotch dropping to the earth" of Chen style. Baguazhang on the other hand can pierce on the inhale of a reverse breath, theoretically to draw Qi from the acupoint that is being attacked. Usually as a set-up, draining the Jinglou/meridian to create a structural vunerability that will be exploited as the contact progresses.

Fu-Pow,

I am talking about the "true" or deep body location of Dantain, not the surface acupoint. While we can have no direct muscular contraction from this area, the idea is for this to the centre of the initiation of the movement. The body is organized around the Dantian/Mingmen relationship, even if the actual movment involves grosser aspects of our anatomy.

This is no small topic.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Ky-Fi


In short, my teacher also used Water Dragon's "pushing a car" example, and I think it's a very good example...

Dear Walter Joyce,

NYAH-NYAH-NYAH

[LapisCircle]

Reverse breathing.... Maybe there should be a manual put out called "Hi, I'm a chinese internal artist, I want to make things needlessly complex", I think that book would sell well.... many of you already seem to have read it.

When you breath your abdomen fills with air and expands because of the air filling the lowest part of the lungs, the abdomen contracts when the air is expelled. When you can comfortably and on a regular this is the way I breath and not even think about it fill the entire lower abdomen so there is slight and comfortable pressure on you kidenys and be in a constant even while walking down the street and sitting on the tolit relaxed and content.. then maybe you should realize things are good so why breath in reverse?