Could someone Explain Reverse breathing

[Water Dragon]

CHI??

[Ky-Fi]

A disclaimer for my first post: I didn't mean to dismiss more advanced use of reverse breathing for higher level qigong purposes, or to discount the subtleties and varied practices and theories of various styles. I certainly don't claim a high level of knowledge, and I'm not denigrating the people who study these things more deeply than I have. But, I just felt that the original post was someone looking for basic information about reverse breathing, and IMO, the basic concept can be communicated in extremely pragmatic terms with clear, real-world physical examples---I feel you kind of have to have a grasp of that before you can go more deeply into the theory.

Walter, I live up in Beverly, and I started my CMA in 1998 with Dr. Yang at YMAA---a little bit at the Boston school, and more at the North Andover school. I've done mostly the barehand form and quite a bit of saber, and some Taiji chin na--not as much push hands as I should have. For the past year though, I've been focusing more of my time on sport fencing (I like swords ), as I've become totally hooked on it and plan to start competing soon.

But let me stress, I make no claims about being a long-time student of Dr. Yang's, and unless I quote him I certainly don't claim to be speaking for him or the school--my yapping is my own. I hate when people elevate their teacher to ridiculous status, and I hope I don't come across as doing that. But one thing that Dr. Yang always says that impresses me is " Whenever I tell you something, put a question mark after it in your head. If you believe it just because I tell you, then that's brainwashing. If you're critical, question it, ponder deeply, and experiment yourself, then you will COMPREHEND." And that's why I'm such a big fan of his is that when I do really think about what he says, I almost always agree. I played a lot of sports growing up, and I just find most of his physical explanations of things to completely jibe with my experiences. If you really examine what happens when you push a car--you don't just immediately tense your muscles and start pushing. First you relax your body, inhale while drawing your dan tien in, sinking your chest in and slightly curving your back, then focus your mind on pushing the car (mind leading the qi), slowly exhale while compressing and pushing out your dan tien, slightly straightening out your back and pushing out your chest (tounge touching roof of mouth ), letting the qi flow through your still relaxed but gradually tensing arm and leg muscles---all from a powerfully rooted stance. I think that explains a great deal of the factors of a (slowed down)hard jin. You can do a very similar analysis of a baseball pitcher throwing a ball as an example of a soft jin (and I believe I've heard the "brush knee, step forward" movement from the Yang form referred to as "throwing the baseball". ) And I guess that reflects my belief that the internal arts are NOT necessarily supreme styles of combat. I love Taiji, and certainly the emphasis on yielding, sticking and using soft jins make it unique, but IMO it has more similarities to "external" styles than differences. I like Taiji because it makes you think deeply about everything you're doing---but I think a LOT of other arts use VERY similar methods, even if they don't describe them in as much detail---because that's how the human body naturally works.

Anyways, I didn't mean to disparage anyone else's posts, and I aplogize if I did.

[Walter Joyce]

KY-FI,

I'll start by saying I'm not being contrary, just honest about my own experience.

I've reflected on the push the car analogy and others mentioned, and I've relected on how I do reverse breathing in my training, and I don't see the connection. What I mean is, I don't use reverse breathing for strength like you describe in everyday situations, and the reverse breathing I do when training is definitely connected to a soft jin. I do tense my abdominal region when exerting myself in everyday life, but it is not the same as the relaxed expansion used in the exhalation phase of reverse breathing when training, FWIW.

Second, how to put this diplomatically. I may very well be wrong in what I am about to say, but it is my honest opinion. I think your understanding of taiji has been influenced by Dr. Yang's understanding of it. Dr. Yang has excellent chin na skills, white crane skills, and he has turned out some great wushu players. He is not someone I would turn to for training in taiji.

Occassionally when I start down this line of discussion someone seems to intrepret it that my head is in the clouds and I have some mystical or legendary understanding of IMA skills. I don't. Everything I write about is based on personal physical experience.

IMA when practiced diligently, for a long enough period of time, and correctly, BY the right person (not everyone can get it, and I'm not saying I am one of those that can) leads to skills that are remarkable, and go beyond your description of the basic skills, " yielding, sticking and using soft jins."

Does this make taiji and other internals necessarily the supreme fighting arts? No, but it does mean that offer the potential for skills that are unique in martial arts.

On my part there is no intent to insult anyone or question their abilities or those of their teachers. We all excell in different aspects, I'm sure.

My main purpose in coming to these boards is to see what others who train in a similar fashion get from their training, other perspectives so to speak, and to get a better understanding of my own training by trying to see from these other perspectives and then expressing my limited undertstanding of the principles involved in my posts.

My understanding is, as they say, a work in progress, and with any luck it will remain that way.

Walter

[Ky-Fi]

Walter,

If your phsyical experiences don't match my descriptions, then they don't---not much I can argue with there .

Regarding Dr.Yang, you're certainly entitled to your opinions, but when you don't really support your conclusions with any examples or reasoning, I personally can't give them much weight. Why would he be excellent at chin na and White Crane? Why would he be less than exemplary at Taiji? Has he studied one style much longer than another? Who did he train with? Do you have first-hand experience with him? How long has he spent teaching each style? What do other teachers or people that have trained with him think of him? What great wushu players has he produced? What concepts and practices does he teach and practice that would make one of his styles good and another bad? I'm not really asking for specific answers to these questions, but my point is that these are some of the criteria I would use to support my opinions of a martial arts teacher. I'm sure if you look deeply, you can come up with some valid criticisms of Dr. Yang, because, as you said, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Again, I don't mean any offense to you, but IMO constructive, detailed criticism of well known teachers' practices and theories is beneficial to CMA---vague denigrations are not.


"My main purpose in coming to these boards is to see what others who train in a similar fashion get from their training, other perspectives so to speak, and to get a better understanding of my own training by trying to see from these other perspectives and then expressing my limited undertstanding of the principles involved in my posts.

My understanding is, as they say, a work in progress, and with any luck it will remain that way."

I'm in complete agreement with you on that---that's what I strive for as well.

[StaggerLee]

Ky-Fi,


I was taping and analyzing some baseball pitchers last night (just highlights). As I reviewed the tape I could not only tell how hard they were pushing, I could also see how tightly they gripped the ball, even how snug their shoes fit.I was also able to discern what direction their breath was travelling.Not bad eh?

[Ky-Fi]

Exactly. And if you watch very closely, you'll clearly see that Pedro Martinez is using the microcosmic circulation for his split-finger fastball, but NOT for the slider (unless there's men on base). He's very subtle, and that's why he's going to win the Cy Young again.

[StaggerLee]

Perhaps he will--if Lowe will give it to him.

Of course Glavine gets my nod for the other league.When he loses 5mph on his fastball he does what any good internalist would do---he loses 5 more.

Mass huh?I'll make a point never to mention the "Sultan of Swat"or Bill Buckner.

[Ky-Fi]

Ahhh, Bill Buckner. You know the poor guy ended up having to move out of New England because of the constant harassment? Plus, he had over 100 RBI in '86, so they wouldn't have even made it there without him. Life is unfair!

[Walter Joyce]

KY-FI,
You're right about my vagueness, I was torn between diplomacy and honesty.

Yes, I have seen and worked with Dr. Yang. I have also attended demonstrations at his school. The students I saw at these demonstartions in the late 80s early 90s were the basis of my wushu players comment.

Yes, Dr. Yang has studied both white crane and chi na loner than taiji, at least based on his bio supplied when I went to his school.

As for his taiji, I will only say that I was expressing my opinion based on a variety of factors which shall remain vague.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

At the risk of getting trashed by those more knowledgable than myself.... Reverse breathing has a place in certain meditative disciplines, raising primal (prenatal) energies upward from the lower burner.. BUT, it is not a "natural" pattern of breathing, it is contrived for a specific purpose. True to my Taoist beliefs (as i understand them), the goal is to move and breathe "naturally". I find that when hands cross there is little time or reason to be focused on "reverse breathing".. my teacher says whenever we are winded, like from running or working-out, and we examine our breathing pattern it is abdominal, expanding during the inhale, contracting during the exhale and, a natural response to the situation. This same "natural" breathing pattern is observable in infants and during our sleeping state, at times whenever we are not influenced by contrived patterns of society or the obsessive search for the mystical.

Reverse breathing is useful in the meditative disciplines that support the internal Arts, it is useful for cultivating refined energies that can later be drawn upon for enhanced performance. I sense that "simple is better", that too many contrived rituals over-complicate the obviously simple, disguising the rewards as the ritual instead of the experience. Besides, try rotating the Dan Tien while reverse breathing, it just doesn't feel right by my own experience.

Just another perspective from the Far-side.. Be well..

[Kevin Wallbridge]

The pattern of abdominal contraction on inhalation is a natural one, and its usage makes sense if you consider the Daoist model of the human as composed of Pre- and Post-Heaven influences.

Everyone reading this has done reverse breathing. They did it not in relation to breath, rather in relation to respiration before the lungs fully formed. Watch an ultra-sound of a fetus and you will observe a rolling-in of the abdomen which matches the blood flow entering its body through the umbilicus. This is the breathing you were doing as your central nervous system was forming. Perhaps it has some significance.

Just because the lung function has taken over the task of respiration doesn't mean it is the only natural relationship we can have to this process. I still maintian that the basis of reverse breathing is the relationship between Yuanqi and Zhengqi, the primordial and acquired energies of life. To stimulate the primordial energies we take our tissue back to a place before we received our breath directly from the outside world.

In our desire for pragmatism and practicality I believe it important to realize that many things we see as contrived at first are actually based on a very practical view of the world. The question for each of us is, "do we have enough knowledge of the context of these training methods to dismiss them out of hand?"

Its easy to throw out a simple example like pushing a car or running, but these may oversimplify something that is based on long observation, not slavish devotion to some idealized past. Its true that most people (the Chinese in China included), rely on little real information and a lot of hearsay when it comes to Neigong practices. The Chinese tradition of secret teaching hasn't done them any favours in this realm. Yet the information is out there if you take the time to really investigate.

How many people involved in Chinese martial arts really take the time to understand the classical Chinese concept of a person. Its easier to come into the training with a Cartesian dualistic ghost-in-the-machine model from Bio-medicine, and a sceptical eye that easily dismisses concepts that are based on another pardigm entirely.

I'm not advocating simply swallowing whole the largely mystical bull**** that has come to present itself as Neigong. Be sceptical without being dismissive. Learn to read Chinese if you are really serious about this stuff, it opens a whole realm of possibility and teaches you very important things about how the founders and diseminators of these styles formed their thoughts. Then read the classics on your own. Most translations are so literal as to be useless. Study the medicine if you want to go deeply internal, then you can go beyond a connect-the-dots idea of points and meridians and see that there are amazing insights into the human exerience to be found within these arts that go well past busting heads and "keeping-it-real."

[RAF]

Right on target.

"How many people involved in Chinese martial arts really take the time to understand the classical Chinese concept of a person. Its easier to come into the training with a Cartesian dualistic ghost-in-the-machine model from Bio-medicine, and a sceptical eye that easily dismisses concepts that are based on another pardigm entirely."

Don't forget about sources on both culture and history that come from outside the martial arts community.

On a different note, I see that Ted Mancuso is offering Kang Ge Wu tape on Bagua basics.

Professor Kang Ge Wu is both a historian and martial arts practitioner and is probably the foremost authority on the history of bagua.

Another chance!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I agree completely with your assertion that too few people do the real research, yet.. when the real research is done, and one finds that all the signs point to uncontrived utter simplicity.. that path seems valid for the perceiver.. It is not a right/wrong path, simply the path that works based on one's own experiences.. which, by my own accounting, is a valid interpretation of Tao.

To aspire to move one's abdomen as though they were still in the womb ("before the lungs fully formed") seems to challenge the notion that we leave the womb and grow for a pupose greater than to emulate a partially formed body. Again, i assert the usefullness of reverse breathing for meditative and chi development reasons, but.. i have tried to find the Martial application of such techniques, but to date i can't get the "flow" of it... Pushing a car?.. indeed, the muscles of the stomach and abdomen are supporting the frame as it encounters inantimate forces too great for the frame to bear unsupported. I would also assert that at its more developed stages, chi used to push a car will effortlessly express itself through well trained channels and relaxed application.

Lastly, this response is not, at all, intended to be inflamatory.. i hope only to share insights.. and learn from those of others.. I am gratified at the level of competency and content in this post..

Be well..

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Its cool Bob.

I think one thing that gets lost very easily is the importance many Daoist practices have placed on alignment of innate and acquired energies. The idea of "womb breathing" isn't about the lungs, its about reminding the acquired costitution where it comes from.

Anyone familiar with the idea of the Ling? Its often translated as spirit or spiritual, but it goes a bit beyond that. Why does life exist at all? That deep stiving that all life displays in the struggle for survival points at something underlying what life is. In Daoist metaphysics this is the Ling. I prefer "the force of life" as a translation, or "the wind of life that blows through the universe." This is the basis of the primordial energies in the body. Try to dies by holding your breath. Conscious control can strive for this (an example of pathological behaviour in the acquired constitution), but as soon as you lose consciousness some other force takes over and you breath again.

An implication of this force-of-life is that it has speed and direction in each of us. True naturalness requires that we become aware of our own unique vector of living potential so that the acquired energies can move in the right direction and at the appropriate speed. This is why reverse breathing is so basic to many practices of internal alchemy.

There is quite a bit more to the Ling (innate aspirations, Hun and Po, Yuan Qi, etc.), but its enough to say that it is a key element of the observations that Daoist practices are based on, as well as being fundamental to their metaphysics of existence.

My thanks to those who bother to chew through my posts.

[Walter Joyce]

Kevin,

Thanks for taking the time to post. It is refreshing to read thoughtful input from someone who has taken the time to do the research.

It is obvious from that research you have learned to view what some see as "simple" questions from the perspective gained by setting aside the western world view and adopted the worldview that gave birth to the practices we supposedly subscribe to.

There is nothing "magical" about neijia training, but is also not the product of the average existence. It is simply physical in many ways, but a physicality that is much deeper and richer from the mundane approach to the physical.

The only magic there is the magic of our existence on this plane.

Okay, I'm done for those who find this stuff impractical.

Walter

p.s. if you really want it, think outside the box.