How important is the internal aspect of Iron Body?

[IronFist]

I guess I would post this here. If I don't get enough replies I'll repost it in the regular forum.

Ok, when you're doing something like Wing Lam's hard style Iron Body (which I did for about 1.5 years a while back), how important is the qigong part? Each section started with a qigong, and then beating yourself, then the bags, then jow and massage. Now, I never did more than iron arms and iron legs, but still. Just out of curiosity, how much of the same benefit would I have gotten had I left out the qigong part?

IronFist

[Nexus]

The Qi Gong plays a key role unless you have developed a very high level of relaxation from some other methods. The Qi Gong opens up the energy channels as well, and allows for you to absorb the blows and redirect them very quickly. The concept is to train the body to subconsciously absorb, empty and redirect energy.

For example, you take a hard attack to the solar plexes, rather then flexing and tensing, you empty, release the energy through the feet, and the blow is absorbed and channeled. This type of channeling is very difficult without a high level of relaxation, it wouldn't be "Iron Shirt "QI Gong"" otherwise, it would just be beating yourself with your fists whicih any tarzan can do.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Supposedly, the qigong part is integral and very important to succeed...
I also heard from many teachers that during the training you should not have any ejaculation at all (well, during all the time you are developping the iron body, so it could be years, not just the time you're beating yourself heheheheh)...total celibacy, your hand included...arrgghhhh kung fu is demanding...

[Stranger]

Does ejaculating cause a release chi, or is it simply the loss of the body fluids which should be avoided?

[Crimson Phoenix]

Apparently, semen is very important in qigong. First, ejaculating is said to drain all the qi from the lower limbs, which is why it is advocated not to have sex the day before and the day after training (if you train everyday, well, too bad heheheh).That is similar to the trainers in soccer who insist on the players maintaining celibacy the night before an important game.
Also, semen is said to be the original essence, and is in close relation with the essence said to be stored in the kidney. This original essence (semence) is said to be very pure, and can be converted into nourishing qi during small and great circulation training. So when you practice these, sex should also be avoided: in small circulation, it will prevent your attempt to build up qi in the dan tian...in great circulation, all your mental efforts will be ruined. Indeed, it is said you can use great circulation to bring the qi gained from the converted essence (the act of conversion is a practice on its own, although closely related to the circulation training) to the third eye to try to open it (ie: reach buddhahood, enlightenment).
I heard YJM say "no sex before you're 30, just to keep your energy and nourish your thrid eye a little". Speaking of which, if this topic attracts you, I remember that his book "Qigong: the fountain of youth (or something like that, it's a black book with Damo on the cover) described thoroughly yi jin jing and xi sui jing, and also some of these practices regarding the conversion of semen into qi (through meditation, celibacy, special groin massages, respiratory training etc...) and how to bring it up to the third eye...
It's very interesting but very complex theory, taking a lifetime to achieve (if not more) and requiring training conditions few people can afford/bear...
So it's specifically semen we're talking about, loss of body fluids aside from that is not an issue (except for blood, if you lose too much...but maybe qigong won't be your biggest problem at the time then hehehehehe).
I hope this gross overgeneralization helped you a little, and if you're really interested by these sorts of topics, get a copy of Yang's book, it's a harsh but very interesting read...
Kind of depressing too LOL

[Stranger]

Now I'm confused.

If it is more than just energy and the fluid itself is important, how would a eunuch like Tung Hai Chuan have iron body? Tung had no testes, seminal fluid, or sperm. What celibacy saves in his students, he did not possess.

How do sifus have families if they ruin their training for iron body or the lower gate everytime they attempt to conceive a child (assuming that is the only time they are ejaculating)?

What about female sifus?

Thanks in advance for any info you can share. I'll probably have more questions.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Stranger, I guess these question are likely to be answered in Yang's book (boy, it really sounds I'm maaking prrofit on it LOL).
Anyway, here are my thoughts based on my limited understanding and assumption:

From what I understand, it's a great mean of building up energy, but not the only one: you can build qi in the dan tian by other means that do not involve semen. It is just that it might take longer, or not be so clear cut.
Women have other ways of building energy, actually I often read that during sex a man is likely to lose energy while the woman gains some...maybe there are some "qi vampiric practices" for women?
Also, women naturally have a bigger battery to store qi in the dan tian, for the sole reason that they conceive life in their wombs.

As for Dong, well, he wasn't a eunuch all his life...he surely had testes at some point...and according to the legend, he was already an accomplished expert before serving the emperor so maybe his iron body was set up already.

As for sifus, well, they just marry late, have sex late and kids late...that's what YJM meant by "no wife before 30" (and he meant "not even a girlfriend"). That's what he did hehehehehhe

[cagey_vet]

women are yin, and naturally receptive.
it has less to do with vampirism, than it does
with the natural way of yin/yang relationships.

[Fu-Pow]

From the skeptic's dictionary:

ch'i kung (qi gong)
Ch'i Kung or qi gong (pronounced chee gung and henceforth spelled chi kung) is claimed to be "the science and practice" of chi. Chi Kung literally means energy cultivation. Physical and mental health are allegedly improved by learning how to manipulate chi through controlled breathing, movement, and acts of will. Chi kung masters claim to be able to heal at a distance by manipulating chi. It is even said that one can strengthen the immune system by mastering one's chi.

Most Westerners are vaguely familiar with Kung Fu and Tai Chi, both of which are related to chi kung. The former is a martial art and the latter is a type of exercise, or internal martial art. The former is sometimes known for demonstrations of breaking bricks with bare hands. The latter is known for the graceful poses of its practitioners. These demonstrations, and stories of even more powerful demonstrations, are offered as evidence of the paranormal or supernatural power that comes to those who master chi.

Asian martial arts schools have become very popular in the West. There is certainly a good side to these training centers for children and adults. They encourage attention to diet and physical exercise. They cultivate physical strength and mental self-discipline. Many focus on self-defense, and they boost self-confidence and self-esteem, even if they don't really make one invincible. However, they also often encourage students to believe they can achieve supernatural or paranormal powers, or heal just about any illness by an act of will, by training and discipline under a "master."

What empirical evidence is there for chi or its harnessing? Testimonials and self-validating statements are offered in lieu of controlled scientific tests. Nevertheless, advocates are convinced they are not deluded in their metaphysical explanations. The acupuncturist is convinced he or she is unblocking chi. The reiki therapist and therapeutic touch nurse think they are channeling ki or prana. The Reichians think they can heal the body by harnessing and directing orgone. As a philosophy, chi kung and its relatives may provide one with a sense of harmony, power and meaning. As a metaphysical belief there is no way to disprove the existence of chi. However, explanations of events in terms of controlling and harnessing chi are superfluous by Occam's razor.

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From Fu-Pow

How much of Chi Gung can we simply chalk up to regular everyday mechanical physics? My thought....all of it. This combined with breathing excercises and ability to concentrate =chi gung. Nothing mystical about it. Not ejaculating= hormonal changes =increased ability to focus and increased motivation, again nothing mystical. So go get some lovin' if you need to. You only live once. Like everything in moderation.

[IronFist]

Thanks, I appreciate the replies.

IronFist