Will Yang Luchang Tai chi replace Yang Cheng FU Tai Chi

[dre_doggX]

A Chen and Yang style Analysis, (Study Chen Iam not sure,you may want to read this
Iam not sure, according to Erle , Yang learn his art from a Daoist of the San Zan Feng leniage, directly will at the CHen village, the Chens had many contacts with Daoist but, Yang Luchan decided not to use the Shaolin like movements, Erle's claim becomes more believe when you study his stuff.

you see the things in his book Reflex Violence, and meditation on the Reptile Brain, studying Jing and stuff, I think I see a diference between Yang LU CHan Tai Ji with its Natural movementsna and CHen Style Tai JI with its unnaturally movements, I used to pratice a 57 movement chen form all the time.and it is on the lines of Shaolin, but the Yang Styles have certian things that differe them from of Kungfus(or external martial arts) the fist are always soft, and are held a a certained where as Chen style is like a Shaolin fist.

Erle says Chen Style is a external Shaolin art, I not completly sure about that

BUT I DO KNOW THIS.
Using the REPTILE BRAIN(Animal instinct part of the human brain) the Yang style dosent change in movement or appilcation, where the Shaolin and CHen style seem to. The Yang style is the same with or without reptile brain mode(which you can learn about inthe book reflex violence on his website).

Yang Lu Chang may of studied Chen style, but I believe that he may of learned from someone else who was not a Chen, but a Daoist.

It is fact that the Daoist did Soften the CHen families martial arts. and that there where more then one visits of Daoist Hermits to the Chen Village.


I was slow to accept this, until I started praticing it for myself.

I like the Chen style butwhen I praticed the YangLu CHan style, and studied the knowledge from it I looked at aspects


1) Chen Wan Ting was a Warrior, like the Samuria of Japan, his martial art was made to grapple and disarm people. this is probably why both Jujutsu and CHen style Tai ji use alot of Chin na(locks, and stuff)San Zeng Feng and the Daoist hermits where Hermits, they wondered China, and Asia but probably didnt take part on the battle feild, Erles claims that there is not grappling in the Internal martial arts,.

2) Now look. in Erles rules of fighitng he says its better to strike down your opponent, will you see if I was Chen Wang Ting or a Samurai my opponent would me armed, and he would have a armor, hence you would need Chin-na techinques to disarm him and flying fancy kicks to battle people on Horses, NOTE if alot of the CHen styles strikes do not hit pressure points to the body where armor would be,then what does that tell you. I havent studied the oringal Chen Wen Ting form only the one made my Chen Fa-ke,but maybe I should Elre has and he said Yang style has more postures. But look at how the Yang form seems to have more dim-mak then Chinna. On the street where hermits would more likely be, Dim mak is what you would use. But on the Battleflieds of China, Chin-na would be great for disarming a warriors weapon then attacking him in an unarmed part of his body.

3) FINALLY, lets talk about the Postures. Chen Fa-ke said that Chen Style is based on the thirteen postures, and even if you took Shaolin Cannon fist of the Chen family and studied that I-Ching, and based it on Daoism with the push hands and the softnes, if it isn based on the thirteen postures then ITS NOT TAI CHI, Erle doesnt consider Chen Style to be Tai CHi, but I do only for this reason. Wudang vs Shaolin, and Tai chi can be said to come from both. how do we know. hmm
lets us look at styles they made,

Wudang has Xing YI QUan and Eagle claw master general Yueh popularised it but we get the ideal the this art exsisted way before he was born. Then you have Bagua Zhang which has a history with more shadows and questions, one legend says that Tung learned it from a Hermit who revived him well freezing in a cave close to Wudang.

Both seem different and opposite to each other, but finally San Zeng Fangs martial art, people say it was Tai CHi but, thats not true(even though the Wudang certianly has a Wudang Tai CHi), he took Shaolin Martail arts and made 12 Qi disruptive forms.(according to Erle) and this was the ancestor to ALL INTERNAL MARTIAL ARTS again according to Erle.
He as an interview with a village of people who are descendants of San Zeng Feng, the do not teach there art openly to the public because Westeners, and Easteners alike have watered down martial art styles of almost every popular form. But according to Erle these 12 movements are in Yang Lu Changs forms,. (You can get Wudang 12 M videos from him to).

In sort BaguaZhang and XingYi Quan we know them to be more Wudang even if they may of been influence by Shaolin, however, when looking at

THE YANG LU CHAN STYLE and comparing it to Bagua Zhang and Xing Yi QUan. the doing the same with Chen style TAi chi, what looks more the same.


I found it to be the Yang style having both characteristics of BaguaZhang and XingYiQuan.



but all this I accepted only after praticing it I called myself a Chen style practioner and really like the Chen style but decided any real artist would not be narrow minded, so I took an honest look, and the rest is history.

the Yang Lu Chang form has 3 forms, the other 3 have "small frame" fa-jing so small and complex to be taught by a video or book, so I am going to learn the 2 other forms from Erle or one of his pupils.

you should read his books and articles for yourself

on Wudang Kungfu:http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/disrupt.html

On Chen Vs Yang TaiChi;http://www.taijiworld.com/Articles/oldyang.htm

his site www.taijiworld.com and it wouldnt hurt to read "Reflex violence" in his download about books section.

[Brad]

No.
#1 There's to many versions of Taiji which claim to be THE Yang Lu Chan version.
#2 There's to many people that just don't believe Erle's claims
#3 Even if he is telling the truth about his Taiji and it really is more applicable, the general masses are going to practice the version that's better for health more.

Honestly, I think it's pretty clear there's a close connection between Yang familly Taiji and Chen familly Taiji just by looking at it.

[gazza99]

For the most part I agree with Brad on all points. I do Erles YLC form simply because I like it, and find the fa-jing movments throughout more envigorating, no matter if its the exact original Old Yang or not its a good tai chi form.

I have done very limited research on the form and below is a brief summation of why I found the YLC form is historically supposed to be different. I am not however attesting to have done enough research to have documented evidence to link it directly to Erle, I simply take his word that his teacher (s) fit into the Lineage chart/history as I know it.

Taken from my sites forum from a previous post...by me.....

Old Yang comparisons- A look at WHY/What the differences are from History: If anyone has any more info, or experiance they wish to share with these form variations please put it down here.

My lineage comes from Yang-shao-hou also known as meng-Xiang. He practiced taijiquan since he was 6, and was an expert in freefighting and using the various jins, and reached the highest level of taiji gongfu. (this is taken
from a source independent of Erle,)

The third son was yang chen-fu, he was not interested in the martial arts until his teens, he did not really understand the key secrets of taijiquan. It was not until his father died that he started to practive hard. He was more open and taught the heath aspects of the art to the masses.His form is what is most commonly practiced as "Yang" style to this day in all countries. While Yang shao-hou taught his fathers form as it was, compact, agile, quick, and specializing in the martial application of the art. Then we have Chen-man ching (CMC) (another story and lineage altogether) who further contributed to the watering down of taiji (martialy), but basically hes the one who brought taiji to the USA, CMC also taught larger frame (lower, bigger) postures for health reasons.

Difference: Since Yang-shau-hou understood the martial aspects better than anyone else, he left the jins (martial energies) in the form as he had mastered them, and did not change it from his fathers. Since he had very few students most people do not practive this form, which has all the movements, including the expolisive "fa-jing" throughout the form. And is very compact, and small frame compared to others. In fact at the highest of levels the form is so small the individual movements are indicernable, hence the old saying "the more thats going on in the inside, the less you see on the outside". I have seen Erle do this version!
It is good to start with the YCF version. But then if able to find a teacher it is best to move onto the Old Yang Form. I however start out my students with this form, but take it very slowly, and cover all the nuances and jins.

Regards,
Gary

[Repulsive Monkey]

I know I'm lowering myself too here by having a go, but I thought I give my opinion too. I don't feel Yang Lu-chan's form will overtake Yang Cheng-fu's because no one has Yang Lu-chans authentic form in full knowledge to validate it. I'm sorry but i'm utterly onconvinced with some of Erles claims, they just don't have that ring of truth about them, sorry but thats just my opninion. Plus, its one thing slagging off Cheng Man ching especially when you are misinformed, because he didn't water down the martial side at all it was always still in his form, however wehn he went to America he considered harder to tech the fighting principles there and found it was hard enough to teach the health side alone, so he just taught less martial art in America although all of his Taiwanese disciples he easily contest his martial ability (and their's too!).
Someone who in one breath smears Cheng's reputation for whatever reasons should be more careful in considering why he does this. Yang Shao huo was hardly a paragon of good health, as he was a known Opium addict for a fair period during his Taiji practice and caused shame on the Yang family too.

[patriot]

It is the same old "my style is better than yours" BS.

Why on earth would anyone pass on all the secrets of Yang Lu Chen and Wudang to a foreigner like Erle (and apparently no one else) who don't even speak the language?

Why hasn't anyone in China recognize Erle as a member of their families?

[gazza99]

Re Patriot: "who don't even speak the language?"


Did you mean: Who doesnt even speak the language?

That would be a question for Erle to answer. It seems instead of posting legitimate info either way you are simply posting rhetorical questions.


Re: re..monkey: "Plus, its one thing slagging off Cheng Man ching especially when you are misinformed, because he didn't water down the martial side at all it was always still in his form, however wehn he went to America he considered harder to tech the fighting principles there and found it was hard enough to teach the health side alone"

Sorry, but after you finish reading your own paragraph tell me how I am misinformed? But thanks for re-informing me that I am correct! I define the watering down of an art what happens when a teacher leaves out a huge element (fighting principles) in a style when teaching an entire continent (America). My statement still rings true by your own post. I respect the opinion in the rest of your post, and I have no reason to persuede you to adopt the Erle YLC form as the original one, but dont tell me just becuase CMC knew the martial, that he didnt water it down by not teaching it in the USA when It was introduced. This is why we may never overcome the "health dance" stigmatism associated in this country with Taijiquan.

regards,
Gary

[Kempo Guy]

FWIW, Erle's Tai Ji form (Yang Lu Chan) is quite similar to the Orthodox Tai Ji form of Chen Pan Ling. I believe that Erle actually comments on this fact on his website...

In any event, during one's research perhaps someone should compare Erle and CPL's forms?

I've been taught a modified version of this form (through Wang Shu Jin's lineage) and have done some comparisons to Chen Pan Ling's form from CPL's book.

KG

[Walter Joyce]

Gary,
While Chen Meng Ching may be more well known, Chu Gin Soon, the second recognized disciple of Yeung Sau Chun, has been teaching Yang taiji in Boston since 1969, and was the official Yeung family representative to North America.
My point, Cheng did not, and was not responsible for teaching Yang taiji to "an entire continent"
Not trying to pick a fight, just correct the record.
Regards,
Walter

[Repulsive Monkey]

I think its fair to say that what you have said is correct. Cheng in his own words claimed that he had only 75% of Yangs art when he left him and therefore it indicates that you're correct. However this does not mean that his art that he taught was deficient in martial terms. I was told of how Gin soon held Cheng's art in very low esteem until when he visited Taiwan and challenged one of Chengs students and was conclusively defeated. I heard that not long after that he desisted in his public remarks about slighting Chengs Taiji.

[Walter Joyce]

RM,
My main point was that Cheng was not responsible for "an entire continent." Any inferences drawn as to Cheng's abilities were not implied intentionally by me.

I don't want to get into a "my teacher can beat your teacher" argument, as I'm more interested in knowledge, and consider the source of all knowledge as the universe, and the person who may be sharing knowledge a conduit for universal knowledge. Sifu worship makes me uncomfortable.

While I have heard of the rumors you mentioned, I can not comment because I was not a student of Gin Soon at the time, nor was I in Taiwan. I will investigate as I am curious.

Regards,
Walter

[kboggess]

Add to Brad's first point...

I have a book published in China by Wu Tu Nan that shows the application form of Yang Shao Hou.

Found a VCD set in China on the secret Imperial Court Yang style (the one Lu Chan taught in Beijing). I believe Jarek offers these on his web site.

Used to have a video of Dai Pei Su doing the Old Yang.

Then there is the Old Yang Erle does.

Observation--all four of the forms look totally different. I lean toward the idea that the Yang family style was never crystallized into a set curriculum. Every sibling and off-spring created or evolved their own interpretation (a living art versus a dead one).

Like Gary, I practice Erle's methods. Like Gary, I don't take the oral history too seriously. Taiji is way too popular in China to take any of the history seriously (even the Chen style). Too much power, face, and money involved. Find a method you like and practice. In the end, it becomes a part of you and it will naturally transform again throough the integration of what your teacher shares, your background experiences, and your personality.

Keith Boggess

[RAF]

Keith:

I am about to order that particular VCD and book that is listed on Jarek's website.

Can you give me some estimate as to what you think of it?

Do they play the entire form with its flavor?

I would appreciate any feedback you may offer.

Thanks.

I also agree with you regarding forms. Its the single moving postures that are critical and I think less important as to how you link them.

[Muppet]

This "this teacher is fake, that teacher is fake, etc." is one reason why I gave up on tai chi after a year.

Fake and/or secretive taiji teachers seem a dime a dozen and even people who've been in the internal circles for years seem to be uncertain about who's real and who's not, so it's not too cool when you wonder every step of the way if your teacher is teaching the genuine article.

Between the two though, I think the secretive taiji teachers who are in the know are doing far more of a disservice than the fakers, making taiji a joke in the MA circles even though they could change that if they weren't so selfish.

God knows there's enough people out there who are willing to learn the real deal.

Thus, I think a bit of advice I read was right: Don't be picky but look hard, find and stick to a genuine of ANY internal teacher who is willing to really teach.

[kboggess]

RAF:

The VCDs do teach the whole forms. But like most martial art VCDs from the mainland, little application is shown.

Send me your email address. I'll send you a sample clip. Mine is kboggess@comcast.net. I'm leaving town for the weekend, so I want be able to encode a sample until the middle of the next week.

Keith

[Sam Wiley]

Most people who practice Taiji do so for health, and martial arts are a bonus. In that respect, over all, none of the various "old Yang" styles are going to overtake the popularity of the Cheng-fu forms. Besides that, many people who take up Taiji nowadays are looking for some low impact exercise that they can do in a few minutes and reap great benefit. The "old Yang" style, at least the one taught by Erle, is not low impact and is more difficult to execute, and it takes more time as well.

In addition, Erle teaches other components to the style besides just that one form, that I have yet to see in other Yang style curriculums. I have mentioned before, in a similar vein to Keith's statement, that it is possible that these "old Yang" forms were created by individuals other than Lu-chan himself as variations on what he taught. With so many people putting forth forms that are sometimes drastically different, and yet all calling them the Old Yang style, this may be the case. Besides that, Yang Lu-chan himself is said to have taught different versions of his system to different crowds. So it may be that every single one of these forms came from him anyway.

Erle's statement about whether the Chen form influenced Lu-chan or not is not one I totally agree with. Yang learned the Chen style, and found it extremely effective, by many accounts. He would not have dropped it completely when formulating his new style. However, Erle's statement is based on his experience with what he believes to be a precursor style to several of the internal systems. Having trained in this style, too, I can say that the Old Yang style as well as Chiang jung-chiao's Bagua style, are very similar in many respects to it, with many postures and applications repeated hroughout the three different systems. I have had very little experience with Hsing-i (still working on San Ti, Keith) but there are some similarities there as well. With very little experience with the Chen style, I cannot really say, except that what little I have seen so far of the Chen style bears less resemblance than the other styles. However, that may very well be from lack of experience with the Chen style. I do respect the Chen style, though, whether or not it came from the same roots (and if stories about Chen and Chiang exchanging martial techniques are true, then they may have after all), and I have found several Chen training methods useful.

All arguments as to where a particular form come from are moot. If it's good, it's good. Who gives a ****e whether it was made by Chang San-feng, Yang Lu-chan, Chen Chiang-hsing, etc...? Just practice what you like if it gives you what you want. All this political and academic crap is just that: crap. No matter what they argue about or how long they do so, they'll never reach the point of agreement. But the proof, as they say, is in the pudding...or sincere practice, as the case may be.