Tibetan Kung Fu Styles

[Stumblefist]

I guess i have to study up here. Looks like youse guys are talking about my white crane which i thought was virtually unknown.
Twisting, angling, fast, fluid, high-low, short-long, overhead swings and ever returning punches with full body weight in the puches. Block them? well that is what the first one (usually lead downward) is for , to take care of your block or knock you sideways so there is nothing in the way of that FINAL swing. It's the most powerful punch there is. Could grab or angle the oppenent's punch and come down with a shortened swing at 45 degrees.
Someone questioned as to what part of the hand could be hitting with: Instructions- first make an ordinary karate-type fist with the thumb under the first two knuckles: then pop that thumb to the side pressing against the flesh of your index finger. This is sometimes refered to as a "tiger-fist". Then on the swing down, say the temple, you hit with the knuckles or the knuckles and palm simultaneously on the palm side of your hand. Guys go down with one hit with this. It can be your final knockout safter a successive series.
On a cross hand grab, you hold onto him pull him off balance and use the 45 degree swing or attack with grab-other hand swing.
Also of course you can use the hammer-fist but that's standard. Also on a downward 45 swing, open hand slap is effective. Because i got the twisting deep inside my body i can use my open hands like whips, lead or reverse. I cracked some ribs once and another time sent a guy to his knees with the lead open-handed whip. For the knockdown, i did lead straight, vertical down reverse which gave me the opening for a thumb-point-down back of the hand lead hand whip to the side of the head.
ook have to study up on this before i post again.

[HopGar]

Sorry ego, you lose once again. So takeit elsewhere b/c we dont wanna hear it.

Zvika

"He's not dead, 'es resting! Well if 'e's resting, I'll wake him up! 'Ello Mr. Polly Parrot...." -Monty Python, Dead Parrot Sketch

[Gum Gong]

I train T.White Crane,and Hopgar,and I can assure you that they are in the "suprerior" art class.Also if you train either one you will not fully understand them until you have done at least
10,000 repititions of your techniques.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

stumble fist,

yes I know, I've trained in those movements as you've described and the 45 degrees downward hit is very effetive especially because of the arc acrtion that can cover more area than a straight punch.

However, white crane is just so basic compared to something like pi qua. This system deals with up and downward hits and the slapping action of loose arms. if you can find a good instructor - you may find the style to be interesting.

Kong Zho wong:

Lose what - no skin off my nose. why are you so fiesty?

Maximus Materialize!

[BAI HE]

Most punches in Bak Hok cover all three ranges in a sweeping full powered fashion. That's just the basics though.
How many arts teach a basic technique covering all three ranges? This would be considered "advanced" in some systems.

White Crane is NO NONSENSE, simple, direct and aggressive in its basics. While you ponder more intricate responses to aggression...

Never mind. Enjoy playing with your transformer collection.

Peace.

[Gum Gong]

White crane does teach all ranges,starting with long range.The thing that makes white a superior art is that it is very open ended, and has a perfect training progression.Once you've done your 10,000's of the basic strengths and basic footwork patterns the rest just falls into place.Techniques are usless unless trained along with the five principles:breathwork,bridge,focus,centering,and timing,and it's these same principles that make the techniques deadly.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Repeating the same basic moves 10,000 times won't make you a beter fighter. it would just make you better at doing those moves in that particular position. Plus it's very boring. Only people who are inherently boring or have a personality as interesting as a piece of card board will subject themselves to this sort of training day after day, week afer week and year after year.

If you repeat the moves 1,000,000 times, you're joints will probably fall off.

possibly you're right - i'll probably would stick with playing with transformers - at least hat would be more fun. you probably find that too. As an analogy - transform them a 1,000 times their joints might fall off.

But seriosuly speaking, I am all for emphasising the basics but with white crane, the appraoch is over simplistic, doesn't recognise the inherent complexities in combat.

Maximus Materialize!

[BAI HE]

There is nothing complex about fighting.
Your basics will save you more often than not.

[Gum Gong]

Hello Ego,
Obviously you have never trained the way I do and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.It sounds like to me, that you need this type of training more than anyone,because it makes you a better person,and I'm sure you have a miserable life,judging from the way you put other people down for your own self precious mind.Anyways.....High reps are the beginning of muscle,tendon change,and marrow washing.Plus they in grain techniques into you,that way when you fight you can fight in style instead of training an art people have lived and died trying to create and then kickboxing when you fight.High reps are very boring at first,and you will suffer emotionally,and physicaly but you will suffer in training and never in life.Ego I appologize for my comments.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"Obviously you have never trained the way I do and have absolutely no idea what you are talking about."

Yes I did - for just a little while and then those people who had the right sense like me got bored and left. The dead beats remained!

"It sounds like to me, that you need this type of training more than anyone,because it makes you a better person,"

Why would getting bored make me or anyone else for that matter a better person.

"and I'm sure you have a miserable life,judging from the way you put other people down for your own self precious mind."

I don't put people down. It is the things people say that put themselves down once their idiocy is exposed.

"Anyways.....High reps are the beginning of muscle,tendon change,and marrow washing."

Nooooooo. i don't think white crane training is a precursor to bone marrow transplant. Plus you need your tendons changed. Geeeez your body seems to be in a rather bad shape.

"Plus they in grain techniques into you,that way when you fight you can fight in style"

Doing many raps teach you how to beat the air and not how to fight. Doing 10,000 raps will stuff up your tendons and 1,000,000 raps will stuff your bone marrow. that's why your body is rotting away.

"instead of training an art people have lived and died trying to create and then kickboxing when you fight."

If you train in teh context of kick boxing then you fight like a kick boxer. Put it this way, within the context of kick boxing rules - kick boxing techniques are the most effective. Think about it.

"High reps are very boring at first,and you will suffer emotionally,and physicaly but you will suffer in training and never in life."

Nah you don't suffer emotionally or physically, it's just a waste orf time IF you're learning how to fight. But I agree, your training would suffer. The again, why should kunfg fu training be about sufferring.

"Ego I appologize for my comments."

No need to appologize. Just don't waste your time with Pak Hok Pai!

Maximus Materialize!

[BAI HE]

feet are firmly rooted, weight sunk to the waist, chi cultivated in the lower dan tien, intention leads the chi through the shoulders, down the arms and transmitted to the point of attack.

White Crane is an internal/external art. The Cotton Needle set itself is considered the therapeutic equal of Tai Chi Chuan.

The complete system includes chin na and traditional chinese medicine.

This swinging of the arms you refer to serves to strengthen and loosen the waist and the muscles of the back and shoulders resulting in the type of "whipping power" that is the hallmark of the system.

Each basic punch covers all 3 ranges, hence the philosophy of "Attacking while being attacked" which is the ultimate aim of Bak Hok.

Punching air? We spar, drill and push hands on a daily basis. The boxing itself is at the center of the white crane system. In the old days a practitioner would study and develop his basics over a period of roughly three years. Then they would spar and spar and spar some more. The style was so effective it was the preferred method of the Ching Dynasty Imperial guard.

So I know not of which White Crane you speak of and I've read some of your earlier derogatory posts about Bak Hok.
I've come to the conclusion that you are a misinformed clown. I checked out your website and whatever it is you think your doing, you like you couldn't kick over a milk carton much less comment one of the most revered systems of gung-fu.
I am sorry for your accident and the loss of mobility in your legs, but running around ****ing people off is not the answer. You will most likely **** someone off and they will show up at your house with a blowtorch and some power tools and turn you into Robogeek. Please go away. You purport to be a Mantis Practitioner, please go to that board and have your jollies. I'm sure you'll be exposed for the shallow, knowledgeless miscreant that you are.
You are a most persistent douche bag, so I'm sure I'll hear some more from you, but I will no longer respond to anything you post.

Best of luck in all ventures. Pete.

[Gum Gong]

Hello Pete,
You took the words right out of my mouth on that one.Tibetan White crane has also been proven in war when the British invaded Tibet back in the early 1900's.There was one instance where Tibetan warriors ,barehanded, killed 39 enemies that were armed with guns.Actually the Lion's Roar System was the Tibetan system probably used which is the mother of Tibetan White Crane.

The high repititions also work on more advanced techniques also.The whole philosiphy behind suffering comes from the Buddihist philosiphy of purity thruogh suffering.I don't hate my training by any far stretch of the imagination,but it is definately one of the hardest things I do,and has to be so too get the desired results.My teacher alway said suffer in training so you don't have to suffer in life,which means train your butt off daily and you will have a much more fulfilling life.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

[CannonFist]

I understand that it is widely accepted that Pak Hok has Tibetan origins. However I don't think that the more common Tibetan martial arts would resemble Lama/Pak Hok/ Hop Gar. I doubt that the Tibetan warriors who fought the British during the early 1900s were practitioners of Lama/Pak Hok Pai.

Lama Pai does have a strong reputation traditionally as proven by Wong Yan Lum (one of the ten tigers of Guangdong) when he beat all commers in an open tournament.

[Stumblefist]

"It's very boring...but interesting". one of my classmates used to say to me a long time ago...but he kept coming back. Sort of sums it up at first - interesting within the boring.
But i never thought of anything of this, in those days no books, no videos, no internet, not even kept a notebook, nor cared if i learned anything "new" that day. Just practiced, and not even count repetitions. Don't like that idea, just at some point movements became internalized. The whole body vigorous practice of "external" naturally leads to "internal in this matter.
The only standard i tried and only aim was "to become strong" , did i keep up? and strongly? and with full movement and speed? The standard was always there in front of me.
That eventually led to a never-want-to-stop practice and an interest to study all day training methods or training/camp - mountain-top practice.
I just keep the standard: do basic movements become internalized? do i have to think to use chopsticks or do i just use them?
From basic movements many other movements can be used spontaneously. So that idea of practice amny movements few reps ) vs (practice few movements many reps) is abhorrent to me. Totally misses the learning process. The system is absorbed quite like spititual absorbtion which is "as a whole" The progress is always long long misery and then sudden integration, not piecemeal. Althugh piecemeal methods are necessary they can't create really be a standard of progress. Which is why the teacher's eyes just watch and watch and watch.
So some people think they can just use their brain to fight intelligently, and i promote that kung fu is more intelligence and mind than most recognize and kungfu can be studied with just the mind only.
The caveat is that only if the body has been prepared and in some sense transcended. It is the core of the thinking machine.
so i put my money on Gum Gong and Bai He.
But counting numbers is trivial, everybody is different. But the process of repetition and body change is not even begun to be described by Gum Gong. There is much more in the burning out of old wrong-use muscle systems and discovering new ways and draining te external to find the internal etc. etc.
But i don't think it is training specific techniques basic vs advanced or this specific vs that specific as it is training basics.
Once basics are absorbedthey are recombined and altered spontaneously in fighting. They take on a life of their own.
All good styles are really one. so there is no pitting one against another in this kind of way. So ..some thought about which style can "eat" the other without alteration of itself. I can practice White Crane and then Aikido. I can take in the Aikido (and keep it as Aikido) and use it. Aikido can not "eat" white crane. On the other hand white crane did not develop the specialities of Aikido so can benefit from them. The realxed slipping, twisting and aggressive "entering" of Crane cna naturally make use of Aikido "entering", iriminage, atemi, locking and throwing.

[Gum Gong]

Very well stated stumblefist.I was trying to get across a point that only you picked up on.Spiritual awakining of your art.Every art has it's own spirit.Your body has is own spirit.You train your body to use its fighting spirit.There is a fine line you can walk on though.If your shen is constantly turned on you will have warrior mind and that is not a good place to be in this society.I train Hop Gar as well as White Crane and while White Crane keeps me in an intellectual,spiritual rythm,Hop Gar instantly sends me into warrior mind and I will become"insta jerk"if I let warrior mind have it's way with me.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough