Tibetan Kung Fu Styles

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

To Pete

"feet are firmly rooted, weight sunk to the waist, chi cultivated in the lower dan tien, intention leads the chi through the shoulders, down the arms and transmitted to the point of attack."

I don't know what you mean by chi, but I agree, Pak Hok uses strong stances with little to no mobility.

"White Crane is an internal/external art. The Cotton Needle set itself is considered the therapeutic equal of Tai Chi Chuan."

Not true, Pak Hok moves differently to Tai Chi. More like Choy Lay Fut

"The complete system includes chin na and traditional chinese medicine."

Chinese medicine is an addon, sure in the old days so people who learned to kill also learned to heal. but medicine is quite separate from the fighting aspects of nay style. Sure every style has it's grappling aspects but in my opinion, pak Hok doesn't intergate the grappling aspects well at all.

"This swinging of the arms you refer to serves to strengthen and loosen the waist and the muscles of the back and shoulders resulting in the type of "whipping power" that is the hallmark of the system."

That's great! It looks like you're either doing a superior style of pak hok or an inferior style of Pi Qua!

"Each basic punch covers all 3 ranges, hence the philosophy of "Attacking while being attacked" which is the ultimate aim of Bak Hok."

Doesn't work all the time. in fact there are limited circumstances when it does work. Angle, speed, timing etc.

"Punching air? We spar, drill and push hands on a daily basis. The boxing itself is at the center of the white crane system. In the old days a practitioner would study and develop his basics over a period of roughly three years. Then they would spar and spar and spar some more."

Not true. It is not in the history of pak Hok to spar. The reason givenis that thestrikesare practiced at full power and its too deadly.

"The style was so effective it was the preferred method of the Ching Dynasty Imperial guard."

Not true This story is not surported by historical documentation other than stories from Pak Hok schools.

"So I know not of which White Crane you speak of and I've read some of your earlier derogatory posts about Bak Hok."

The post are not intended to be derogatory.What I say is because of what it is.

"I've come to the conclusion that you are a misinformed clown. I checked out your website and whatever it is you think your doing, you like you couldn't kick over a milk carton much less comment one of the most revered systems of gung-fu."

I may be a clown but I'm not misinfored What we site are you referring to? I don't have a website.

"I am sorry for your accident and the loss of mobility in your legs, but running around ****ing people off is not the answer."

I'm not responsible for people's reactions to my comments. If they don't agree so be it.

"You will most likely **** someone off and they will show up at your house with a blowtorch and some power tools and turn you into Robogeek."

You've really got an imagination - but try to get a healthy one. yeah I do have a doctorate in robotics Call me a geek if you must - see if I care!

"Please go away. You purport to be a Mantis Practitioner, please go to that board and have your jollies."

If you find my post to be so distasteful, why do read and respond to my post. Again I must stress that I'm not responsible for your actions and nor you're of mine!

"I'm sure you'll be exposed for the shallow, knowledgeless miscreant that you are.
You are a most persistent douche bag, so I'm sure I'll hear some more from you, but I will no longer respond to anything you post."

You don't impress my much

Gum Gong

"Very well stated stumblefist.I was trying to get across a point that only you picked up on."

I think you've missed the point!

"Spiritual awakining of your art.Every art has it's own spirit.Your body has is own spirit.You train your body to use its fighting spirit."

You don't have to get into the mystical spiritual, extra-terrestrial transccendental bull crap. Kung fu is nothing more than fighting.

"There is a fine line you can walk on though.If your shen is constantly turned on you will have warrior mind and that is not a good place to be in this society.I train Hop Gar as well as White Crane and while White Crane keeps me in an intellectual,spiritual rythm,Hop Gar instantly sends me into warrior mind and I will become"insta jerk"if I let warrior mind have it's way with me."

Oh I think you're mentally screwed. A warrior's mind - that's a laugh. You mean like doctor david banner and the incredible Hulk. Do you grow white feathers in the process. But seriously, you fight because you have to fight. There's nothing more to it. Thestate ofmind is trigerred by external stimulus - much like Dr. David Banner and the Incredible Hulk. Ooops did I already mention that?

Maximus Materialize!

[BAI HE]

Kelvin Chin, I now know that you know nothing about Bak Hok. Please supply the name of the White Crane Sifu who agreed with you that his art is "useless". What's his name?

[BAI HE]

Please see "Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods"
re: White Crane boxing.

Cotton Needle is the chi set in the style
it resembles Yang style tai chi.

Punches? Nothing works all the time.

Pi Qua? Never heard of it?

[Gum Gong]

Yes Ego I'm crazy very crazy.Thank you for reassuring me.And your the only sane person in this great big world.Why are you even on here?You don't train anything but your fingers on the keyboard.I will reply to nothing more from you.

Bai He What's that Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods.It sounds really interesting.

10,000 repitions
1,000,000 repitions
Trained not tough

[BAI HE]

It's a great little book by Robert W. Smith. Back in the seventies he travelled throughout various regions of Taiwan and Hong Kong to study and train with various masters of different styles.

He trains or meets wit three White Crane Boxers.

It's an inexpensive little book but a great one.
I believe Mr. Smith is going to be interviewed in next month's Inside Kung Fu.

If you want a real laugh. Search for Ego's past posts and you'll see what a troll he is. He doesn't know whether he's coming or going.

It's well known and written in several books that WC was the preferred method of the Imperial Guard of the Ching Dynasty.

So ignore Ego.

[CannonFist]

Robert Smiths book does talk about white crane but it is a different white crane from Tibetan white crane. It is Fujian white crane which is very common in Taiwan.

Ego: Its interesting that you compare Tibetan white crane with Pi Qua. Pi Qua does seem to have very sopisticated long swinging arm techniques.

[BAI HE]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Bai He

"Kelvin Chin, I now know that you know nothing about Bak Hok. Please supply the name of the White Crane Sifu who agreed with you that his art is "useless". What's his name? "

I think you've got the wrong person. My name's not Kelvin! And as I have mentioned in pervious posts, i am not at liberty to disclose any of my previous instructors or any schools. Suffice to say that I have trained extensively in WC.

"Please see "Chinese Boxing, Masters and Methods"
re: White Crane boxing."

Who's to say that some schools don't train differently. i've seen some Hung Gar schools that train like kick boxers.

"Cotton Needle is the chi set in the style
it resembles Yang style tai chi."

The soft crane set is an add-on. it bears little to no relationship to the entire system. It's probably a modified version of tai Chi. i know of that set.

"Punches? Nothing works all the time."

Yes, and when it doesn't work the WC practitioner is stuck because the style harps on the same concept. Kind of like a one solution fits all - when reality is not the case!

"Pi Qua? Never heard of it?"

Educate yourself! It is what WC was meant to be!

Cannofist

"Ego: Its interesting that you compare Tibetan white crane with Pi Qua. Pi Qua does seem to have very sopisticated long swinging arm techniques. "

Yes i was trying to illustrate the fact that they may look the same (swinging arms), but technique and applications are very different.

It's the whipping action in Pi Qua. I've trained in both and the training methods are very different. Power generation is very different. I fully understand when WC pracs. brag about the whipping power - hey I used to think the same way until I practiced Pi Qua.

At this point - I'll be branded a troll by some. But don't you think its funny that some of these people who do the name calling haven't even heard of Pi Qua! Perhaps before they start the name calling they should give Pi Qua a go. What do you think?

Maximus Materialize!

[BAI HE]

"Pak Hok uses strong stances with little or no mobility."

I set you up with "feet firmly rooted". You walked into that one. WC stresses mobility and evasion in combat. Again, you know nothing.

Add ons?
Anything outside the original 6 forms is probably an add on

"but in my opinion , Pak Hok doesn't integrate the grappling aspects well at all?

Really? I spent a good long time in Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujitsu, I feel pretty qualified to say that it does . What's you experience in this? Wrestling with a twelve year old at a flea market over the last Optimus Prime doll?

The Cotton Needle set is not an add on. It's one of the six original sets.

Furthermore, if you suggest to any Sifu, WC or not, that his art is "ineffective" I am certain he would give you a demonstration and relieve you of conciousness.

I educate myself every time I enter the Kwoon. Pi Qua? Don't really care. Before you were hawking Northern Mantis. Now Pi Qua? Where did you get all this time to master these arts? Answer: You didn't. Go ahead and point out any Pi Qua school within 10,000 miles. You won't.

You offer nothing in the way of validation of any of you opinions, experience or skill.

"Kung-Fu is nothing more than fighting."
For you it seems Kung-Fu is just mental m-a-s-t-u-b-a-t-i-o-n.

Troll? you said it not me pal. You are a web-warrior and little else.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"I set you up with "feet firmly rooted". You walked into that one. WC stresses mobility and evasion in combat. Again, you know nothing."

Mobility and evasion is not absolute but relative. It is fair to say that for some one who hasn't trained in Northern styles you would find white crane to be mobile etc.... But as I have trained in both i know better. I'm not disputing what you claim about WC, it's just that your knowledge base doesn't extand to styles like Pi Qua.

"Really? I spent a good long time in Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujitsu, I feel pretty qualified to say that it does ."

WC uses alot of mongolian wrestling techniques but it doesn't integrate well with the rest of the system. It's either long swinging arms or close in wresting - the transition between the two is rather shoddy.

"What's you experience in this? Wrestling with a twelve year old at a flea market over the last Optimus Prime doll?"

Northern styles deal extensively with close in techniques. Plus i had extensive experience in Southern systems to make a comparison.

"The Cotton Needle set is not an add on. It's one of the six original sets."

You can call it what ever you like, but it is necessary to evaluate the contents of the set - it is inconsitent with the rest of the style.

"Furthermore, if you suggest to any Sifu, WC or not, that his art is "ineffective" I am certain he would give you a demonstration and relieve you of conciousness."

Well I always wondered what would happen. At least now I don't have to lose sleep over it if he were to releive me of my conciousness.

"I educate myself every time I enter the Kwoon."

Yes, doing repetitve exercise is like learning English by reciting the alphabates. Maybe you're just a slow learner and you neeed the repetition to drill it all in.

"Pi Qua? Don't really care. Before you were hawking Northern Mantis. Now Pi Qua?"

Suit yourself. Some people appreciate a well rounded education, I guess others don't.

"Where did you get all this time to master these arts? Answer: You didn't."

Some people may be faster learners than others. Not every one requires repeating the 8 basic punches 1001 times each. WC was used by the imeperial guards as a form of exercise, but peasants thought that it was a fighting art! peasants are always a bit slow - you don't have to pretend to be one.

"Go ahead and point out any Pi Qua school within 10,000 miles. You won't."

And why should I. If you recite the alphebates 1001 times, you'll be able to locate a school in the phone book. Just a hint: P comes before Q and after O. it works, you won't be disappointed!

"You offer nothing in the way of validation of any of you opinions, experience or skill."

Oh are you feeling cheated?

"For you it seems Kung-Fu is just mental m-a-s-t-u-b-a-t-i-o-n."

But of course, the mind is the greatest weapon.

"Troll? you said it not me pal. You are a web-warrior and little else. "

In the age of electronic warfare, how many battles these days are waged with spears and swords.

Maximus Materialize!

[BAI HE]

I do most of my basics on my own time at the Kwoon, home wherever.
Like in western boxing, the "roadwork", running, basics, weights, etc. Is my responsibility, not my Sifu's.

Anyway, think our exchanges have killed this thread and I'm now bored and I'm sure you have other threads to disrupt.

It was fun jousting with you. Take care Pete.

"The taller the bamboo grows, the lower to the groung it bows."

p.s. I will look into this Pi Qua. Sounds interesting.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Like wise, it's a pleasure jousting with you. If we lived in the wild west we probably would have duked it out with a six-shot. If we were in the wild east, we'll have to survive each others deadly blows.

But seriously, do give Pi Qua a go. It is not supposed to be some mystical mumbo jumbo that people claim internal arts to be. A good pi qua school would teach practical stuff and students will be fighting the way they train.

Good luck with your life oh Black Knight. Brave Sir Robin awaits a new jousting partner. On Guard!

Maximus Materialize!

[alecM]

Ego or should I call you Richard Cranium, I see you are back and championing the cause of Pi Qua this time the last time it was Baji or was it Northern Mantis and by the way why is it that on this board you live in New Jersey and on Cyberkwoon you state you live in New York. It didn't take long for Cyberkwoon to label you a troll.

Fear not the man who has learned one thousand kicks, fear the man who has practiced one kick a thousand times.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Alecman,

i'm not Richard Cranium. The cyberkwoon board is moderated by a bunch of close minded tight @sses, to the point where they feel the need to edit the post of Ego Maximus.

I've never referred to myself as Richard or what ever other names except Ego Maximus and Ego Extrodinaire. Both are great egos on these forums and i can understand why lesser egos feel the need to brand me as a troll. i hope you're not that kind of person with low self esteem.

I live very close to New Jersey. In fact, I'm closer to New Jersey then i am to Manhatten Island. but i travel alot to MIT where I'm working on a robotics project.

And again, i do hard core robotics research and don't play with transformer toys although i do think that transformers is quite a cute idea. My 6 year old cousin does - not I.

Seeing that you've come on to this forum, tell me what you have to say about Pak Hok Pai!

Maximus Materialize!

[warrenoh]

ego, u can't say certain style is bad with ur short experience(3 years).
Talking about myself, i m 24 yrs old, and trained since i was 4. i got my first black belt(poom) in TKD in 1983, when i was 7. i trained ShanDong Shaolin and MeiHuaTangLang for my teenager years, and i got my 2nd degree blackbelt from Korea WuShu Association, and passed regional WuShuSanDa contest for Asian Games(Asian Olympics).i also trained JuDo in PoSung HighSchool which is famous for its athletic experience in korea, and some hapkido in middle school.

I have a friend who's specialized in BaJiQuan. he learned from WuLianZhi in CangZhou, HeBei, China.
he also knows PiQuaChang(BaJi&PiQua are trained together), and showed me some PiQua moves a couple of years ago.

Generally, training in korea is way much tougher than North America.
For example, i had to stand in horse stance for 30 minutes, before i learned the very basics. the classes was 5 days a week(M-F 2hours day), and sometimes the club went for hiking on sunday. this is how i trained when i was young.
Also, i got involved in lots of street fighting and group fighting(School vs School, etc.) Since there's no gun for the public in korea, we fought with mostly BareHand, BaseBall Bat ,and Iron Pipe.

I came to Canada in 1994 for school, and trained WC&Lama since then.
i now work in a security business(Private Security and In-House security), and not to brag about myself, but i never lost in 1on1 fight.

My love for Tibetan style is based on my experiences. and i m sure people here love what they train and train hard, and i respect them for that.

the reason i teach KickBoxing and TKD for my private students is because that's what they want to learn from me.

i m sure there are hundreds of different MA styles. but i believe the eventual goal is same.
as the rice ripes, its top is bending down. Human-Being's life is same, too. as we go to higher level, we become more humble.
this is how i learned.

Ego, obviously, no one here likes you, and that's because you are putting down what they love. if u think what u love is better than what we love, so be it and leave us alone. And from what i read, you are a very smart person, and i don't understand why you are doing this. i m sure u can do better than doing this. Why don't you put this effort in your training, ego?
i m sure u'll be better.

Love yourself, ego.

[This message was edited by warrenoh on 07-21-01 at 03:03 AM.]