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Thread: Fighting style for law enforcement?

  1. #31
    There was a programme on TV last night where they showed both CCTV and police camera footage of street brawls and robberies in Nottingham, one of the UK's most violent towns. Not one shot of people rolling on the ground grappling there, it was all stand up punch/kick/baseball bat stuff.

    There was one lovley bit of CCTV footage - guy in a corner shop threatens the gilr on the till with a large knife. So whole family steam out with bats and lay into him.

    As far as the police go - in most cases by the time they got there it had finished. Where it hadn't I still didn't see any ground work. Not to say you shouldn't know how to operate on the ground, but I'm sceptical of that 95% figure.

    Cheers

  2. #32
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    Really my advice is learn everything you can. Last year a friend of the family who was SAPD as well as a swat team member was killed in a struggle with a guy who just had a few warrants...nothing major. Anyway, the policeman who died was a golden gloves champion boxer, and who knows what else he had learned along the way. A stuggle ensued (I believe they were standing) and somehow the punk wrestled the gun out of the policeman's holster and shot and killed him. Now this is a veteran swat officer I'm talking about here. Things happen, even to those who have trained well. L/E folks especially need to be trained in all ranges of combat, both armed and unarmed. I would tend to stray away from traditional styles and go for a more L/E and/or military oriented style, along with some grappling for groundwork. These skills must be developed ASAP because you might have to use groundwork or standup on your first day or ten years down the road.

    Come to think of it the trial for the guy who killed the policeman is going on right now. There were a couple witnesses that saw the whole thing too. Texas is not very forgiving when it comes to cop-killers. Barring some kind of technicality that guy is toast.
    Your intelligence is surpassed only by your ignorance.

    You are more likely to fall down the stairs and break your neck if you live in a house with stairs. You are more likely to be in a car accident if you drive to work. You are more likely to be kicked in the nuts or punched in the nose if you practicing the martial arts. - Judge Pen

  3. #33
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    riots are another completely different dynamic than 1, 2 or 3 cops taking on a single resisting perp. going to ground against multiples is retarded.
    "heres to you as good as you are
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  4. #34
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    ewallace -
    I would tend to stray away from traditional styles and go for a more L/E and/or military oriented style
    Xingyiquan is over 1000 yrs old, and was taught as the MILITARY style in China due to its direct effectiveness. Maybe you would be more thrilled by some NEW way of killing/contolling people using your bare hands. After all is said and done, physics, and human nature work the same today as 1000 years ago.

    I think a person needs a good teacher. Statements about new vs. traditional are steeped in subjective experience, that I am willing to bet, is limited by a lack of experiential knowlage.

  5. #35
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    CD Lee

    Of course a person needs a good teacher, that's a given. And I do not discount traditional styles. I wouldn't wager too much on your bet.

    The fact that it's 1000 years old and is or was taught to the CHINESE military is irrelevent. One would probably be hard pressed to find a teacher in the states that has direct experience training the chinese military. Laws of excessive force change with time and with national laws. So do the weapons that one may encounter in the field. My point is that if one needs to get up to speed quickly on effective techniques that consist primarily of the need to restrain, traditional styles may not be the way to go (over the long run is a different story). That is just my opinion. Just because a style is not 1000 years old or is not chinese in no way shape or form makes it any less effective.
    Your intelligence is surpassed only by your ignorance.

    You are more likely to fall down the stairs and break your neck if you live in a house with stairs. You are more likely to be in a car accident if you drive to work. You are more likely to be kicked in the nuts or punched in the nose if you practicing the martial arts. - Judge Pen

  6. #36
    Xing Yi a 1000 years old? I don't think so, I thought it was developed in the 1600's at the earliest. It was taught by a general as it was easy and quick to learn for some of his footsoldiers.

    As for subjective experience - aside from my own experience in traditional CMA I have a friend with many years Xing YI experience behind him. He rates it as a good powerful striking system for one to one, but of limited value outside of that, and certainly of very limited value for law enforcement.
    Last edited by bob10; 10-21-2002 at 02:08 AM.

  7. #37
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    going to ground against multiples is retarded.
    Actually, staying on the ground against multiples is retarded. Not knowing how to move around well down there is doublely retarded.
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  8. Thumbs up

    I think,generally speaking,if you can choose in any way then donīt go to ground at all.It seems that many sources treat this with this common view.Thatīs a terrible place to be against multiples or even stronger/larger opponent(s).
    If you have to,then work down there only to get up,why to be there on purpose?
    The sunsetīs setting down.Lay me on the forest floor.

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  9. #39
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    Shuai Chiao

    but I'm biased

  10. #40
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    I think,generally speaking,if you can choose in any way then donīt go to ground at all
    Sure.

    But we are talking about law enforcement here. Watch COPS on fox sometime (not sure if you get it over in finland) but time after time when cops are chasing a fleeing suspect and catch up they both go to the ground. In fact a couple months ago I helped an undercover policemen restrain a very beligerent and drunk individual at a bar. Guess where most of the scuffle took place.
    Your intelligence is surpassed only by your ignorance.

    You are more likely to fall down the stairs and break your neck if you live in a house with stairs. You are more likely to be in a car accident if you drive to work. You are more likely to be kicked in the nuts or punched in the nose if you practicing the martial arts. - Judge Pen

  11. #41
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    GGL

    Where do you train at in Austin? One of these days I'm going to make the drive up there to check out some S/C.
    Your intelligence is surpassed only by your ignorance.

    You are more likely to fall down the stairs and break your neck if you live in a house with stairs. You are more likely to be in a car accident if you drive to work. You are more likely to be kicked in the nuts or punched in the nose if you practicing the martial arts. - Judge Pen

  12. #42
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    Ewallace

    Yup I'm in Austin. I train with Dave Pickens, but John Wong is in South Austin.. both are good I think

  13. #43
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    I'll start a thread or p/m you the next time I plan on going up there. I'd like to check it out.
    Your intelligence is surpassed only by your ignorance.

    You are more likely to fall down the stairs and break your neck if you live in a house with stairs. You are more likely to be in a car accident if you drive to work. You are more likely to be kicked in the nuts or punched in the nose if you practicing the martial arts. - Judge Pen

  14. #44
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    Bob10 said:
    Xing Yi a 1000 years old? I don't think so, I thought it was developed in the 1600's at the earliest. It was taught by a general as it was easy and quick to learn for some of his footsoldiers.
    Hey Bob, I think you may have some mis-information on a very old art form

    I took this off of Mike Patterson's excellent web site which the entire article is there if you want some other good information on Xingyi at http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i/hhist.html


    Hsing-I (XingYi) HISTORY

    HSING I CHUAN - is a very old "internal" art most often attributed to General Yueh Fuei, a famous Chinese military hero who died circa 1130 A.D. Although most scholars agree that General Yueh did not invent the art, he is often given credit as the founding father as a result of his attempts to promote Hsing I through his military endeavors.

    The origins of this most ancient of Chinese systemized combative art forms are unknown. Yueh attributed a wandering Taoist as his teacher whom had no traceable name. And the history of evolution of the art is sketchy at best, although it certainly does pre-date Yueh’s time frame. Some scholars believe the art should be dated at least as far back as the Liang Dynasty (550 A.D.) which is certainly possible. Likely the myth of creation is attributed to Yueh because it makes for a very nice story. The art is so sophisticated it likely was several generations in evolution to its complete form.

    What is known about Hsing I, is that it is one of the oldest and most famous systems of Kung Fu to ever come out of Chinese Culture. The skills of Hsing I masters are legendary, and their kung fu prowess is the subject of numerous tales and songs throu ghout Chinese History.

    Suffice it to say that Hsing I is known as a most powerful form of Chinese Kung Fu and good teachers of this mighty art form are much sought after even today.



    Also by bob10
    As for subjective experience - aside from my own experience in traditional CMA I have a friend with many years Xing YI experience behind him. He rates it as a good powerful striking system for one to one, but of limited value outside of that, and certainly of very limited value for law enforcement.
    Well, that has not been everybody's experience certainly. If all he has learned to do is strike with Xingyi, he may as well take Karate or boxing. There is so much more to good Xingyi than striking. That is why teachers are so very important, to bring the arts of whatever persuasion to life and practical usefullness. And yes, experience is subjective I agree.

  15. #45
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    xing yi / hsing i is indeed a powerful combat art/style.

    short sharp shocks and to the point.
    plenty of crushing, twisting and general get to the point stylings in hsing i.

    Gene -
    Alex Tao is one baaaaaaaaaaddddddddd dude. That was an interesting article. Also very "to the point" in the style area.

    peace
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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