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Thread: Fighting style for law enforcement?

  1. #46
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    ewallace said
    The fact that it's 1000 years old and is or was taught to the CHINESE military is irrelevent.
    Hey there Ewallace ....I drew first blood, I deserved that.

    Ok, I actually do think it is relevent. Not like you may think, but Xingyi is direct, powerful, and effective in real battle. That is why it was used so long. It works. And...the other nice thing, it is a system that can be developed to a very high skill level over a lifetime if one so chooses that path. Chinese in this case does not matter, just time proven techniques and skills.

    Now as to getting up to speed fast, I tend to agree with you here, although I am not sure what you mean by non-traditional? Chinese Chin-na is as old as everything else. Jui Jitsu and Karate are traditional right? These systems have tons of restraining techs in them or am I missing something here? What new styles are you speaking of?

  2. #47
    Originally posted by CD Lee

    Well, that has not been everybody's experience certainly. If all he has learned to do is strike with Xingyi, he may as well take Karate or boxing. There is so much more to good Xingyi than striking. That is why teachers are so very important, to bring the arts of whatever persuasion to life and practical usefullness. And yes, experience is subjective I agree. [/B]
    Funnily enough both his father and grand father were pro boxers so he already knew plenty about striking before taking up Hsing I around 15 years ago. I didn't say all he learnt was striking, I said that in his experience Hsing I was of limited value outside of a striking one on one environment. Sure there is some chin-na in there, but it doesn't compare to more specialised grappling styles. And AFAIK there is no ground-work component, nor have I seen any traditional teacher show knife or gun defence.
    My friend has trained with people like Professor Li De Yin, Ji Jian Cheng and other top professionals. Even one of those said his chin-na wouldn't be a great deal of use against a "big, strong guy".
    YMMV

  3. #48
    Personally I'd go with wrestling or judo and BJJ, with an emphasis on your top game.

    Anything that gives you base and balance, and teaches you the problems associated with applying joint locks to a resisting opponent is good.

    Not that striking arts wouldn't be handy, but they look less like restraint and more like beating the crap out of someone, if that matters to you.

  4. Smile

    Ewallace,
    Yeah,I know,we actually have COPS around here.
    I understand your point,it seems that it often turns into a muscling session where the opponent is forced to ground in the end of the situation to tie him up (not just talking of that tv-series)
    The sunsetīs setting down.Lay me on the forest floor.

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  5. #50
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    bob10 said
    . I didn't say all he learnt was striking, I said that in his experience Hsing I was of limited value outside of a striking one on one environment. Sure there is some chin-na in there, but it doesn't compare to more specialised grappling styles.
    Fair enough. My guess is that you have not been exposed to too much in Hsing-I. There is more than 'some' chin-na 'in there' somewhere. That is where understanding of the art and applications come in, not just form, but we can agree to disagree there.

    As far as being useful for other than just striking one on one, try the Brazilian Xingyi guys on this board that fight a lot. They don't share your friends opinion or experience. But in all fairness, fighting is subjective, and some people use styles better than others depending on a lot of different factors. That would be the most excellent Tadzio, Bruno Lima, and others from Marcello's school.

    Obviously as I have always stated and believe, supported further by yours and my exchange on Hsing-I here, the teacher is far more important than the style. One guy makes it work incredibly well, another finds limited value. I believe both are completely true for those guys. Good teachers are priceless.

  6. #51
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    Rodney King Arnis Style seems effective for the LAPD!
    A

  7. #52
    Originally posted by CD Lee
    bob10 said


    Fair enough. My guess is that you have not been exposed to too much in Hsing-I. .. But in all fairness, fighting is subjective, and some people use styles better than others depending on a lot of different factors. .....One guy makes it work incredibly well, another finds limited value. I believe both are completely true for those guys. Good teachers are priceless.
    -sigh-

  8. #53
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    I don't know if the arnis style can be called that seeing as they were using tonfas.

    Not much of a style either when you're just beating someone on the ground armadilloing.

    sad that was, but does not reflect the majority of any police force and definitely is not indicative of the police forces in my country.

    you are always gonna have a bad apple or two, but the rest more than make up for it.

    Blame the media.

    and remember, 40 people a day get shot in the U.S.A on average, but apparently only the Washington shootings get the coverage deserving of gun deaths in america.

    peace
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  9. #54
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    Boxing and wrestling.

    You learn how to hold the guy down while you punch him and tell him to shut up.
    IXIJoeKaveyIXI

    If Wing Chun was a man, he would be The Man...

  10. #55
    Being I am in law enforcement here is the best advice I can give,(just my humble opinion)

    1. First concentrate on getting thru the acadamy. Worry about a system later.

    2. Learn everything you can on your use of force policy and all laws covering it. Then you will not be worrying about being sued. More cops are hurt and injured because he was going over force continuation formula while the bad guy was planning to mess him up.

    3. Get real good with that sidearm and I mean to the point where you handle it like it is an extention of your arm. You are RESPONSIBLE for the terminal resting place of EVERY round you fire.

    4. Now look for a school that is well rounded with backgrounds in Muay Thai, BJJ, and stick fighting.
    But learn everything you can no matter what style you pick. Listen to veterans on the force and keep quiet during your first year, and use your ears when the vets are story telling. You'll be able to sort the bull from jewels if you listen. Learn to speak "verbal judo" and read body language(sit on the other side of the mirror and watch an experienced investigator question someone). Once you step into the street you will never stop learning and if you do stop it might be time to quit.

    Good luck and one more thing. Get a degree if you dont already have one and never forget your family and to spend as much time with them as you spend on the job.(it's impossible but I think you get my meaning)

  11. #56
    "Now as to getting up to speed fast, I tend to agree with you here, although I am not sure what you mean by non-traditional? Chinese Chin-na is as old as everything else. Jui Jitsu and Karate are traditional right? These systems have tons of restraining techs in them or am I missing something here? What new styles are you speaking of?"

    What ewallace was saying is that he wouldn't take those styles to learn quick self defense. I really don't blame him. chin na is not something that's extremely effective when you are new to it, nor are pressure points. the "traditional styles" he's talking about are styles like karate and kung fu, where you spend X amount of time learning techniques, then you drill, then you spar lightly, then medium, then full - if you are in a school that spars at all. in more sport oriented styles like boxing and muay thai, you spar at an earlier stage. The same goes for judo and bjj. yes, they are all traditional, but due to the sport format, the training is different, and benefits can be reaped faster.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

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    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  12. #57
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    You really understand me well Seven. If you had boobs on your back I would marry you.
    Your intelligence is surpassed only by your ignorance.

    You are more likely to fall down the stairs and break your neck if you live in a house with stairs. You are more likely to be in a car accident if you drive to work. You are more likely to be kicked in the nuts or punched in the nose if you practicing the martial arts. - Judge Pen

  13. #58
    I do have boobs on my back...When is the honeymoon?
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  14. #59
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    Wing Chun and ....?

    Check out the link below for some LE testimonials. I'd also recommend a controlling art (Jujitsu etc) and some good old fashioned weight lifting.
    http://www.iowawingchun.com/law.html
    It's not the Art, it's the Artist

  15. #60
    If you haven't already, go back up a few posts and read tsunami surfer's advice. I agree with it complete - except for his advice on styles, because no two people ever completely agree on style.

    Much of my background, as many of you know, has been training military special operations and civilian law enforcement in general and specialized hand-to-hand techniques. I taught primarily Five Animals and Long Fist techniques, but I think this statement is misleading, since most people think only/mostly about forms when they think about those styles.

    Anyway, I can say that the people that were trained in kung fu were much more prepared to handle conflicts than those that were trained in most other styles. This was proven in the field. However, at the risk of sounding immodest, I believe that it had more to do with the quality of instruction, and the level to which it was practiced, rather than the style.

    I would not recommend these styles in general. Most instructors will not teach it the way it should be taught for law enforcement purposes. On a recent trip to Israel, I was fortunate enough to observe some Krav Maga training. I have been curious about the style for some time, and was happy to learn a bit about it.

    Krav Maga will give you very realistic and relevant skills very quickly. I don't believe that it makes you any better than some other styles (for your purposes), but it can get you to a reasonable level quickly. I do believe that various styles of kung fu will take you further than Krav Maga, but it will also take much more time.

    So, my advice might be to study (or at least take a look at) Krav Maga. Once you have a pretty good grasp on those techniques, then consider broadening your skill with some style of kung fu.

    I hope this helps.

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