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Thread: The Hakka Arts

  1. #1
    Kevin Barkman Guest

    Shared Hakka Fist Histories?

    Greetings Short Hand Brothers!

    There was a previous post about Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hanging out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong which sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the "Wai Yeung" village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas's / internet) and population size. Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.

    It appears that all three were born at the same time as well (LYK in 1876, CLC in 1880). I speculate Lao Sui was born around 1878, when I do the math subtracting various dates posted in his life 1878 - 1942?)

    LYK and CLC were known as "the Two Tigers of East River" but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the "Hai Fung" Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named "Liang Hua Su Ren" who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen).

    From the magazine articles out there on Chu Gar (written by Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod), they say Lao Sui learned his Art from a Wong Fook Gao (who was also born in Wai Yeung). However, I believe the source said that all three also learned from a "Chung Yel Jung" - the Poisen Snake, in Hong Kong. Is there dispute in the S. Mantis community over who Lao Sui learned from? It seems that Lum Sang is not connected with Lao Sui's lineage. Much of the info I have comes from the huge Southern Praying Mantis historical collaboration on the Net (by F. Blanco). I am wondering about this connection. Also, I am wondering about the possibility of Chung Yel Jung being called "the poisen snake" and Lung Ying's top form (one of) being called Poisen Snake Flicks / Hides Tongue.

    Therefore (to sum), we have 3 kung-fu brothers, with a possible 4 shared teachers. The fact that Lung Ying does not mention Wong or Chung, to me suggests either a desire to seperate, or a completely seperate lineage.

    Anyway, this is probably about as interesting as the dust balls in my closet to just about everyone except 10 people out there! Personally, I can't get enough of it!

    By the way - for all you die hard Bak Meirs and Dragoners, Chow Fook's student in Hong Kong (CS Tang) has written a book on Lung Ying Mor-Kiew, which is now printed and can be purchased through their web-site (go to HK Chinese Martial Arts Association site). Haven't seen it yet - just ordered it! Looks awesome!

    Cheers and Happy (Chinese) New Year to You!

    Smashing Bridge Kevin


  2. #2
    David Guest
    Does Chung Yel Jung mean poison snake? Chow Gar has a pole form called poison snake.

    Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod have never mentioned Chung Yel Jung in any articles I've seen.
    There is dispute over a couple of things regarding Lau Sui. One is who he trained under - which is disputed by various of Jook Lum. The other is his marital relationship to the Ip's which was erroneously described by Gene Chen in an article and then spread all over.

    There's more of interest in what you say but you wrote so compactly that it'll take a while to extract all you say.

  3. #3
    Kevin Barkman Guest
    Hi David - thanks for replying!

    Could you tell me what the theories are out there about who Lao Sui learned from? Is he connected in any way to Lum Sang? Did Lao Sui learn most of his Art on the South Mainland, or in Hong Kong?

    I think "Poisen Snake" translates as Dok Se - apparently, this was CYJ's nickname.

    I heard that Yip Sui married Lao Sui's daughter - is that not correct? Just curious from your comment.

    Its funny how these common histories are only 50-60 years old but its like a thick fog has descended down on this period, and no-one seems to know anything about it! Makes me all the more curious!

    Cheers - Kevin

  4. #4
    Guest
    Kevin

    Yip Sui never married Lau Soi's daughter. And his wife pass away last year.

    Wilson

  5. #5
    Guest
    Sorry just a few points to follow.

    Lum Yil Gruw, came to HK during the 2ndWW. And stayed and teached for a few yrs, then he came back to HK to settle at 1958.
    Cheung Lai Chung settled in HK with his 3 sons only at late 40s. Although he has been to HK many times before and a close friend of Lau Soi.
    According to a publishment made by the "Mo Lum Chow Bo" (Wu-Lin weekly) in the 70s. Dai Yuk Sim Si and Jook Fai Wan are Si Hing Dai and they both teaches the art of Mor Kui. That's why the similarities of Mor Kui in both Bak Mei and Lung Ying.
    Lau Soi cames to HK during the 1910s where he started teachings in Shar Gay Van in HK island. His birth place is called Kwoon Yum Kwok in Wai Yeung, Canton.

    Just hope these information may help in your research.
    Wilson

  6. #6
    Kevin Barkman Guest
    Hi Wilson - thanks very much for sharing this information! It does indeed help!

    I think its like putting a giant puzzle together, and trying to find the pieces which fit together. I only have a small part of the puzzle put together, but every new piece opens new possibilities!

    Anyway, your reply raised two more questions in my mind....first, is "Kwoon Yum Kwok" a village in "Wai Yeung" Province? Do you or anyone else know why I can't find it on any map/atlas of Southern China? Is this a Hakka transliteration? Is there a Mandarin name for this?

    Second (and more interesting!), when you say the "Art of Mor-Kui", is it your impression that this was the name of the Art before they were called by the newer session names? This may be common knowledge to everyone but me, but I'd greatly appreciate any insights into this!

    Many thanks! kevin

  7. #7
    Guest
    Kevin

    You're welcome. First, Kwoon Yum Kwok, is cantonese. Not sure about the Mandarain. Secondly, Kwoon Yum Kwok is an area just like Bok Law for LYG in Wei Yeung, and Wei Yeung is in Kong Don which I think is what you meant by province.
    What I meant by art of Mor Kui is not trying to impose it as a style. It is a name of sets that share by BM and LY, which are very identical.
    Wilson

  8. #8
    Guest
    Now see? THIS is the cool stuff. Breathes life into the people who are otherwise just pictures on the wall. Before you ask, no, I don't study Hakka Kuen of any sort, but I've always found it fascinating, if a little hard to locate. But the histories of the martial arts and which teachers knew each other and how that may have influenced the arts is very interesting.



    It's also nice to see some civilized discussion on these boards for a change. Thanks.



    ------------------
    Nothing beats the Sizzling Rice Fist and the Hot and Sour Palm


  9. #9
    Lau Guest
    Hi,

    I just purchased a book from Hong Kong about Lung Ying Mor Kiu. I think it has a lot of info about the history of dragon style and maybe Pak Mei in it. It has information in English, but most of it is in Chinese which I can't read.............. I will try to find someone to translate it for me.

    Or has someone on this board allready read this book? If so, can you please tell me more about the information in chinese in this book? (It can be found on http://www.go.to/cstang )

    Regards, Lau

  10. #10
    wisdom mind Guest
    is Pak Mei considered Hakka style?

    thanks for this answer and ...
    good post with info on CLC. Thanks

  11. #11
    Guest
    Hakka Kung Fu consists of 3 styles Tong Long, Loong Yan and Pak Mei. And Tong Long divided into 4 branches Chow Gar, Chu Gar, Jook Lum and Tit Au( Iron Ox).


    Wilson

  12. #12
    wisdom mind Guest
    Thank you !

    Anyone know of resources on Hakka KF or more specifically the life of my Sigung Cheung Lai Chun?
    (besides the book: Pak Mei Kung Fu by H.B. Un?)

    Thanks again.


  13. #13
    Guest
    I'm not too sure of the 'true' facts on the histories of Hakka Kung Fu, but this is what I have been related to by my sifu. Apparntly, hakka people, not being too popular with the rest of the Chinese wondered around China as nomads.
    Being such, there was a need for self defence. Thus Hakka Kung Fu was born.

    Southern Mantis, Pak Mei and whatever all came from the Hakka people. So if you like, they are all just different parts of the same whole.

    Anyway, now to my Si-Tai-Gung Lao Shui and Si-Gung Ip shui. No, Lao Shui had no children of his own. But yes, Ip Shui and Lao Shui are related by some way that I've just forgotten, if you want to know how they are related, e-mail me, I'll ask sifu in the morning.

    From what I here (note, I practise Chow Gar so this could be bias)... Lao Shui had many students. One of which is the grandmaster of Chu Gar. Apparently, the name Chow in hakka sounds very similar to Chu, so this Chu guy changed the actual spelling giving himself the title of grandmaster. Jook Lum is also another variant of the system... Obviously, this all happened straight after Lao Shui's death.

    Note, the only system of southern mantis which has no link to Chow Gar in Iron Ox. The style was/is completely seperate from Chow Gar. But note this also, In the Chow Gar system...A form from the Iron Ox system is taught... So there has been trade in techniques but the origins differ.

    Also, does anyone actually do Chu Gar? I have a few questions on the way you guy's do your Sam Bo Jin form....

  14. #14
    mantis108 Guest
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kevin Barkman:
    Greetings Short Hand Brothers!

    There was a previous post about Lam Yiu Kwai, Lao Sui, and Cheung Lai Cheun all hanging out in the same teahouse in Hong Kong which sent me into hours of research trying to find connections between these three in the resources I have. I found out that all three were born in the "Wai Yeung" village/province of Guangdong. This is in the East River area (Tung Fung) - and close to Lau Fou Shen Mountain. I have been unable to locate this site to determine its exact location (through atlas's / internet) and population size. Knowing the pop. would help in either supporting my theory or detracting from it.

    I remember it was said the Lum and Cheung were cousins.

    It appears that all three were born at the same time as well (LYK in 1876, CLC in 1880). I speculate Lao Sui was born around 1878, when I do the math subtracting various dates posted in his life 1878 - 1942?)

    LYK and CLC were known as "the Two Tigers of East River" but no mention of Lao Sui. Also, from the speculation out there, the Lam Family studied from the "Hai Fung" Monk (who IKF names as "Huang Nian Jiao). This same Monk taught a man named "Liang Hua Su Ren" who taught CLC. Of course, there is the Monk named Tai Yuk as well (at Lau Fou Shen).

    It was also said that Lum and Cheung learned some forms or a system called Sam Bo Tyui from a traveller called Hoi Fung Si. So, I believe Lum and Cheung are Kung Fu fanatics who would pursuit as many arts as they could to achieve personal best.

    From the magazine articles out there on Chu Gar (written by Gene Chen and Paul Whitrod), they say Lao Sui learned his Art from a Wong Fook Gao (who was also born in Wai Yeung). However, I believe the source said that all three also learned from a "Chung Yel Jung" - the Poisen Snake, in Hong Kong. Is there dispute in the S. Mantis community over who Lao Sui learned from? It seems that Lum Sang is not connected with Lao Sui's lineage. Much of the info I have comes from the huge Southern Praying Mantis historical collaboration on the Net (by F. Blanco). I am wondering about this connection. Also, I am wondering about the possibility of Chung Yel Jung being called "the poisen snake" and Lung Ying's top form (one of) being called Poisen Snake Flicks / Hides Tongue.

    Lung Ying's forms are basically in 3 stages. From first form "16 moves" to the highest 7 routines of Plum Flower fist. Poison Snake Flicks Tongue is an intermediate form. It is one of the five original forms which Lum learned from Ta Yuk sim si.

    Therefore (to sum), we have 3 kung-fu brothers, with a possible 4 shared teachers. The fact that Lung Ying does not mention Wong or Chung, to me suggests either a desire to seperate, or a completely seperate lineage.

    It seems that Lum and Cheung shared many comment background yet develope into two individual systems. It is quite common to meet a Lung Ying and Bak Mei Student. My Sifu Chow Fook is an example.

    Anyway, this is probably about as interesting as the dust balls in my closet to just about everyone except 10 people out there! Personally, I can't get enough of it!

    By the way - for all you die hard Bak Meirs and Dragoners, Chow Fook's student in Hong Kong (CS Tang) has written a book on Lung Ying Mor-Kiew, which is now printed and can be purchased through their web-site (go to HK Chinese Martial Arts Association site). Haven't seen it yet - just ordered it! Looks awesome!

    Great, thanks for the info.

    Cheers and Happy (Chinese) New Year to You!

    Smashing Bridge Kevin

    [/quote]


  15. #15
    mantis108 Guest
    Hi Wilson,

    I wonder if you are a Lung Ying and Bai Mei brother. If you would share some of your views on the systems. I'm very interested in contacting students of these systems. Please feel free to contact me at sifu1@internorth.com

    mantis108

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