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Thread: The Hakka Arts

  1. #31
    mantis108 Guest

    Sun Lu Tang's comment and Hakka arts.

    I was reading something about Sun Lu Tang who had cross trained in the three major internal arts - XingYi, Taiji and Pagua.

    Here is a comment of his:

    Internal styles' boxing strive to seek the center*, Taiji devoids the center, Pagua morph the center, XingYi straighten the center.

    * center has both physical and metaphysical senses to it.

    My thoughts on this is that should Lung Ying practitioners want to cross train with an internal art Taiji is a fine choice since both are circular in nature. As for Bak Mei the choice would be XingYi since both arts are linear in nature.

    In Sun's book "Xing Yi Quan Xue - the study of Form-Ming Boxing", there seems to have a strong Taoist theorectical and philosophical orientation which suits Bak Mei's Taoist connection quite well. The Trinity and Five Fists (Wu Xing) worth investigating and studying.

    Just thought that I share this.

    Peace to all

    Mantis108

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    Contraria Sunt Complementa

  2. #32
    Lung Ying Guest
    Mantis108,

    Very very true. I find that Tai Chi has a major effect on the way I practice Lung Ying. My moves are much more fluent and I feel much more coordinated. I told my classmates to take advantage of our Sifu's knowledge of Wu style Tai Chi, but alot of them think it's worthless- a serious misconception! It's funny, but when I started Tai Chi I was surprised at how difficult it was compared to other kung fu (not to say Kung Fu is easy). I'm enjoying Tai Chi's benefits as much as Lung Ying.

    I wonder why Sun Lu Tang mentioned Lung Ying and Bak Mei? Was he an expert in these style's? Also, where did you read that article? I like to gather as much info on anything related to Lung Ying since there's not alot of info out there.

    Thanks [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

  3. #33
    mantis108 Guest
    Hi Lung Ying,

    Sun Lu Tang didn't comment on other styles other than the three internal arts. I mention this largely because of my interest in the 3 IA. Lung Ying (so is Bak Mei) as you may have heard from your Sifu is from external to internal. So a good understanding of the IA would be most helpful. According to Sun's comment, Taiji devoid of the center means that you don't have to regroup and strike. You can strike at any one given point. This is not unlike Lung Ying's stiking philosophy - you don't retrack your extended tools to regroup and return fire. The reason I thought XingYi suits Bak Mei well is that I tried to incooperate circular coiling and spiraling motion in BM but it doesn't seem to work that well (less ferocity). When I applied "straightened" my center in theory and perform Bak Mei, it seems to be very natural and powerful.

    Hope this will clarify for you. BTW, what kind of info are you looking for? Can I help?
    You are welcome to email me.

    Mantis108




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    Contraria Sunt Complementa

  4. #34
    Lung Ying Guest
    Hi Mantis108,

    Thanks for your kind offer. I'm not looking for anything in particular but I try to collect any articles, writeups or books related to Lung Ying for my own reference. I'm sure you realize as I do that there isn't nearly as much books and articles out there about Lung Ying as there is about say, Northern Mantis. I have to say that I do see alot of stuff on Bak Mei.
    Alot of the articles my Sifu has are from Chinese newspapers ,magazines, and they are all of course, in Chinese, so I can't read them, though I would like to get them translated someday.
    If you by chance have any really good articles on Lung Ying that you would like to share I would love to have a look at them. Please let me know, it's much appreciated!

    Thanks again [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


  5. #35
    Kevin Barkman Guest
    Hello - I may be playing the devil's advocate to this question, but if you are strong in one respect, shouldn't you try to balance the other? In this way, Bak Mei Compliments Lung Ying by balancing the circular with the linear. Any other art practiced to "flesh out" or round out Dragon or Bak Mei will be beneficial up to a limited extent - but no more. Any additional study will gain a student more of a "liberal arts" education, which will give them a greater understanding of human movement and fighting. How many "electives" does one need in their pursuit of excellence?

    Specific to this question - I have never known a Dragon or Bak Mei Sifu who was not well respected in an additional art or two as well - mainly in Tai Gig.

    However, this pursuit of additional knowledge (aside from Tai Gig) will give them little in the way of new skills, or understanding of their own art.

    How many people have invested the time to master their own art to its greatest potential? I would speculate maybe 5% or so, maybe less.

    Good Question - worthy of futher speculation!

    Cheers - Smashing Bridge Kevin

  6. #36
    Lau Guest
    Hi Guys,

    I've got a small remark regarding Pak Mei. I only train Pak Mei but I think Pak Mei can benefit from both Xing Yi and Tai Chi. But imho (and with my limited knowledge of other arts) Xing Yi is close to Pak Mei so there isn't much extra to learn from it. I think it will be 'more of the same' to practice. While Tai Chi stimulates the chi flow in the body and opens up the energy channels for you.

    So while both arts are great I think that Tai Chi offers more 'extra's ' on top of the Pak Mei training than Xing Yi does. But once again , in my humble opinion.

    If only I had the time....... Regards, Lau

  7. #37
    wisdom mind Guest
    I too only practice Pak Mei, at this time I cannot comment on the subject-at-hand due to inexperience with the other arts mentioned...but...LAU who is your sifu?

    Mine is Sifu Master Man Kwong Fong in NYC.

  8. #38
    Lung Ying Guest
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kevin Barkman:
    Hello - I may be playing the devil's advocate to this question, but if you are strong in one respect, shouldn't you try to balance the other? In this way, Bak Mei Compliments Lung Ying by balancing the circular with the linear. Any other art practiced to "flesh out" or round out Dragon or Bak Mei will be beneficial up to a limited extent - but no more. Any additional study will gain a student more of a "liberal arts" education, which will give them a greater understanding of human movement and fighting. How many "electives" does one need in their pursuit of excellence?

    Specific to this question - I have never known a Dragon or Bak Mei Sifu who was not well respected in an additional art or two as well - mainly in Tai Gig.

    However, this pursuit of additional knowledge (aside from Tai Gig) will give them little in the way of new skills, or understanding of their own art.

    How many people have invested the time to master their own art to its greatest potential? I would speculate maybe 5% or so, maybe less.

    Good Question - worthy of futher speculation!

    Cheers - Smashing Bridge Kevin
    [/quote]

    Hi Kevin,

    That's a good point. Lung Ying and Bak Mei are sister systems and were created by the same people, so many masters are skilled in both systems. In Lung Ying, we do a form called "exercise form" which develops waist power and internal strength, I was told that this is one of the first forms in Bak Mei, so you can see the connection.
    So many Kung fu schools are complimenting their system with Tai Chi practice(even Karate schools!) so I think that it is an excellent compliment for anything. I not an expert on Xing Yi, but if it teaches relaxation and cultivation of internal power, it can only be a bonus for all styles.

    Peace [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

  9. #39
    mantis108 Guest
    Hi All,

    Nice to have shorthand brothers reponding which is one of the reason why I wrote this thread since we haven't been communicating much lately. (internal monologue)"Where is our Shorthand sister?"

    Other reasons are

    1) I realize that LY and BM are from external to internal. I wonder what do we all do to get to the internal?

    2) Internal arts often are said to start soft and end hard. Wouldn't you think it's a good way to round out your practice?

    3) Also, Kevin, I think you've met Master Cheung Kwok Tai (Lam Woon Kwong's lineage) who does "Lup Hop Baat Fa" (water boxing?)
    What would his views be? And your impression of him and his practice like?

    It is always nice to know where are we all heading to better ourselve. Don't you agree?

    Peace, thanks for share more of your thoughts

    Mantis108

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    Contraria Sunt Complementa

  10. #40
    wisdom mind Guest
    If Pak Mei and Xingi are both linear in nature, wouldn't the Practitioner wish to round themselves off by learning a more circular style? i really dont know! please give a thought or 2 [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

  11. #41
    mantis108 Guest
    Hi Wisdom Mind,

    Glad that you ask. My take on this is like pairing food with wine. You can go with pairing similar flavour or constrast the flavour. The objective is obviously to enhance the flavour without introducing a third element thereby disturbing the harmony of the pairing. The environment which you are in can provide some directions of your development.

    Just a thought

    Mantis108

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    Contraria Sunt Complementa

  12. #42
    Kevin Barkman Guest
    Hi Mantis 108,

    Sifu Cheung does indeed do Water Boxing, as well as Yang Tai Chi. He has several videos out on the subject. He is not the only one, I believe Sifu Steve Martin also includes Liu Ho Baat Fa in his curriculum.

    From what I can tell, the practice of these internal arts makes the dragon smoother, and softer. This is in contrast to the harder and crisper styles of LY out there. One emphasis more on yin, one more on yang. However, don't mistake the yin for weaker! Sifu Cheung has legs like lamposts - immoveable! What do they call it - iron wrapped in cotton?

    Sifu (Mark) Chan on the other hand specilizes in generating maximimum power, and "killing the guy" real quick. His chi sau is deceptively soft too - but if his hands touch you, you're "dead already"!

    Small variations - same goal!

    By the way Lung Ying - you mentioned you do a basic "exercise form" similiar to Bak Mei (?). Is this called Sup Luk Dong or Bo Bo Toy? Could you describe this a bit more?

    Thanks! Kevin

  13. #43
    Octavius Guest

    Hakka fist?

    Hi all, how many different Hakka fists are there? I know of only Pak Mei, Dragon (Long Ying), and Southern Mantis. Are there others? Since these three are all versions of the "Hakka fist", are the differences in kind and not in degree, or vice verce? And they all seem to be short systems, so are there Hakka long fists as well? And why are they mostly short anyway (any historiucal reason?)? And last but not least, since Wing Chun is also a short fist, and most of the short fists seems to share similar concepts, is that a conincidence due to the "short"-ness of teh systems or is there some historical reason? Or am I just wrong in that area?

    OK, that's way too many questoins in one post, but I'd appreciate any input. Thanks

    Long Live the Fighters!
    -Paul Mua'Dib Atreides

  14. #44
    CLOUD 1 Guest
    Five yards out , five yards back !!!.
    Three yards out, three yards back!!!.
    One yard out, one yard back!!!.

  15. #45
    Octavius Guest
    Huh?

    Long Live the Fighters!
    -Paul Mua'Dib Atreides

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