Exploding the Myth of the So-called Internal martial arts?

[CD Lee]

Human nature. It still exists in the internal arts. It exists in governments, police forces, and churches. This is simply not surprising.

I have seen external schools do sparring sessions too. These guys poke at each other, stop constantly, pull shots, and overcommit balance because they know they can get away with mistakes and nobody is going to get hurt badly. A lot of these guys cannot fight any better than any other non MA person willing to just go hard for 15 seconds of sheer fury.

Sparring is fine, but it does not make the internals work or make it real anymore than the external styles that poke and stop constantly after every good strike. Sparring is a tool. It is one step up from forms, but does not make a great internal fighter in and of itself.

Understand what I am saying, and this is just my opinion. I do not think you become a good internalist without sparring. However, sparring does not make a good internal fighter. There is a lot more to it than that or everybody who spars would be good.

If I were to spar a TKD guy who spars with his buddies a lot, and suddenly charge him with good balance, and grab his throat violently with both hands, uprooting him, and slam him to the ground, mounting him and start thrusting elbows into his face as hard and fast as I could, do you think his previous sparring would help him in this situation? I think the fact that I broke his sparring rules and he is now gasping for real air would lock his responses up to where I would see no real TKD at that point, but pure survival and panic.

So, it makes total sense to me that this problem is very pervasive within most martial arts schools. This is one reason I did not go out to the first McKarate or McTKD schools around here, of which there are a multitude.

If you need fake shcools, no need to seach out the internal schools, there are plenty in the yellow pages of every major city in almost every style.

[maoshan]

Peace All

I’ve been too busy to get back here sooner, but anyway,
This is to
Tai Chi Bob:

(A woefully overlooked aspect of Chinese internal martial arts, one not mentioned in this thread, is healing. the soldiers (or a single practitioner) gets wounded or injured, the war is not won with a crippled army. healers are an essential aspect of war. if we neglect to educate our students on basic maintenance skills, proper nutrition, and basic healing arts we have done them an injustice.)

First and foremost, this topic is not about health. KFO has a forum set up for that. If that’s what you want to discuss, that’s where you should be.
Besides we’re Internal stylist to begin with, the health benefits are a given with proper practice. If you’re not in good health to begin with how can you fight?
All that you mention here is a given, in school. This topic is about usage, Period. Morality and Ethics have no place here.
If you get hurt in the heat of combat all you can do is either suck it up and continue or run (if you can). The healing can only begin after the conflict, and it’s all about not needing to be healed. That’s supposed to be for the other man.

(Yes, the most apparent evidence of the Arts' validity may be upon the battlefield, but the preparation to get there is at least as important, and the ability to return to the war day after day (broken and fixed, broken and fixed again) is the signature of good leadership. Although I don't believe it, it sounds like many on this thread discount all but the battle. To the novice or inexperienced this thread sounds like so much other kick-butt, chest-beating, self-inflating rhetoric, that I fear we diminish the perception of the Art to just another "King-of-the-hill" martial art.)

What are you talking about here? This is what we‘ve always talked about. “Conditioning“. In order to be a proficient fighter, proper conditioning is an absolute must. Again, what’s your point?
As far as your comment on the “king of the hill” act, again this thread is about usage. The consideration of the non achieved is misplaced here. To talk of fighting in the Internal in the first place requires that all those involved be at some level of accomplishment in their training. If they are not, then all they should do is sit back and learn. This is not elementary school. We are Internal martial artist. The collage of the martial Arts. Have these arts not been equated with the scholarly? I will not drop down to the level of individuals who cannot even hold a static posture for more than 20-30min. besides most of this stuff they would learn through experience anyway if they would train. .


(The well-trained Tai Chi Player is a feared adversary, a welcome friend and an assett to the community and the culture (whichever culture the Player represents).. Please be strong enough to present the whole picture, to be an ambassador "for" the art rather than one that dulls its finely polished image..)

Who are you talking about? I don’t know anybody like that where I’m from. It’s put up or get F%$k up.
Now getting down to it, the end result, on a basic level, of all this training is too able to fight. We teach all aspects of Ba-Gua, but our emphasis is on fighting and health. For those that what more, we can go there too. Just because for the most part we talk about applications and ability in true situations doesn’t mean that we have nothing else. Don’t sleep on us. Mastery is the goal. It can’t be reached by half assing it. Fighting is fundamental in that process. But yet non-fighters are teaching and promising the impossible to the gullible masses. Who’s Tarnishing the Image?
Truth is truth. Of course there are individuals who can use their art.
But those are individuals. It’s the mass we are talking about (yes, the 99%).

(Too often, those that can't tap into the "mystical Chi" aspect find it easier to "explode the myth" than make the effort to attain it for themselves.. sort of the "if i can't have it, neither can you" syndrome... but, i say.. "Live and let Live".. Unless, of course, the Tao has appointed someone as its official spokes-person, uniquely qualified to direct the rest of us in the appropriate interpretation of Tai Chi..)
If you are trying to infer what I think, come find out for yourself. We are not simple brawlers.

I have more say to you but once again time is against me. I’ll continue later

Peace

Maoshan

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Self-appointed thread dictators are a dime a dozen.. this thread, as i understand it (not as i tell you it is), is for Tai Chi players to share experiences, concepts, communicate and learn..

Of course this thread is about health, how healthy is someone laying in the hospital because they learned a "dance" without the application and experience (sparring) to back it up..

"Who are you talking about? I don’t know anybody like that where I’m from".. It is apparent, from your post, that you really don't know anyone like that..

"It’s put up or get F%$k up.
Now getting down to it, the end result, on a basic level, of all this training is too able to fight."...... My understanding differs, as i see it fighting is just ONE aspect of Tai Chi.. but, if that's the limits you're willing to set for yourself, so be it.. For me, Tai Chi is about living life at its fullest, free from the bonds of fear.. and, yes, fighting is essential to enable one to live at that level, but.. i think its a lot more than that simplistic approach...

Maoshan, do an ego check, why the aggressive language and supremist attitude? If you need a forum where people only agree with you, i suggest you start a new thread, or a new site.. but, i would hope your training would have helped you to explore tolerance and develop a spirit of sharing all the aspects of Tai Chi, not just the fighting..

Now, if i am out of line, here.. if this thread is deemed, by the participants, to only discuss fighting, i will humbly apologize and i will remove myself from the forum.. i have no need to impose my views on others, or serve my ego with confrontational challenges.. i come here only to share insights..

Be well... be real..

[blacktaoist]

If you should be so fortunate as to be in the central Florida area (or, if we should be so fortunate as to have you visit), please contact me, i will e-mail you with my contact info.. i would be honored to meet you..

I have a few friends that live down in that area, Next year I be going to see them, So I take you up on your offer, I be honored to meet you as well.

Now, if i am out of line, here.. if this thread is deemed, by the participants, to only discuss fighting, i will humbly apologize and i will remove myself from the forum.. i have no need to impose my views on others, or serve my ego with confrontational challenges.. i come here only to share insights..

There is no need to remove yourself from this thread. Everyone has a right to their opinions and to disscuss their veiwpoints no matter what the martial aspect they practice the most. Opinion is just opinion, different insights that are disscuss. In the end of some of these many long disscussions, one will find:

NO ONE WRONG, NO ONE IS RIGHT.

Unless a person statements are mostly false and his claims(internal skills) are faulty in logic.

In speaking for myself I have no ego, that part of me die a long time ago. But I'm willing to compare my skills with other so-called internal experts of today any time. What matter to me today in the internal martial arts world, is practical methods.(real skill) bringing the proper techniques to the opponent makes the art. (practical minded individual)

ONE SHOULD BE BENEVOLENT, BUT NOT BE HUMBLE.

Peace
BT

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Excellent choice of words, "benevolent".. a signature of wisdom, by "my" accounting..

Be well..

[HuangKaiVun]

Better some sparring than no sparring.

Besides, guys that REALLY train are taught methods of doing sets and sparring that prepare a person properly for real combat. blacktaoist OBVIOUSLY underwent this type of training and thus is entirely prepared to put it to the test.

Arrogance has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. In kung fu, the basic issue is whether or not one's techniques WORK or not. And in this thread, it's to discuss why SHOULDN'T they work.

In the street, which these arts were created for, there's no room for hauteur or ego. A guy comes at you, either you fight him off or you get beaten down. True kung fu men know that all that energy spent in ego-pontificating and holier-than-thou-ing would be better served fending off that opponent - or at least TRAINING to fend him off. In short, "it’s put up or get F%$k up"

I don't disagree in the least with the "harshness of presentation". This is life or death we're talking about here. Real internal stylists have this attitude because kung fu is often the only thing keeping them from being taken down by the nefarious elements of society.

Even to those who practice kung fu strictly for health benefits, a serious and even harsh approach is often warranted. One must SWEAT and ENJOY IT to do kung fu.

If anything, blacktaoist's rants have been very respectful. This guy could present immense laundry lists of guys who say they can fight and CAN'T fight, but he respectfully refrains from naming names. That's something a real internal stylist would do - honor other practitioners regardless of their perceived skill level.

Besides, he's willing to step up to the plate on his comments. If anybody feels offended by his remarks, let them call him on it in person via hand testing.

That's the way of the true kung fu fighter - don't make a statement unless you're willing to put it to the test

[maoshan]

Peace

TaiChiBob,
(Self-appointed thread dictators are a dime a dozen.. this thread, as i understand it (not as i tell you it is), is for Tai Chi players to share experiences, concepts, communicate and learn..)

Wrong! The thread is about Internal practitioners that can’t use their art (99%). This was not about Tai Chi alone but the entire Nei Jia.

(Of course this thread is about health, how healthy is someone laying in the hospital because they learned a "dance" without the application and experience (sparring) to back it up..)

You take things out of context. And you’re a bit contradictory. Make up your mind. You’ve done this also in some of your previous post in this thread. We’re taking about the ability to use your technique in any given situation, which in actuality is a mindset.

(My understanding differs, as i see it fighting is just ONE aspect of Tai Chi.. but, if that's the limits you're willing to set for yourself, so be it.. For me, Tai Chi is about living life at its fullest, free from the bonds of fear.. and, yes, fighting is essential to enable one to live at that level, but.. i think its a lot more than that simplistic approach…)

There are no limits in my pursuit of mastery of my art. All aspects.
Now I understand where your coming from, and your right from a full picture point of view. But you will only get the true benefits from the total training. Fighting is fundamental in that training. How do you learn to control the energy that you’re supposed to be training for? Fighting is the first stage. Push hands and sparring Teach you sensitivity and projection. Real fights test your capability with these aspects. Post training trains the Mind as well as the body, for ONLY with a disciplined mind can you move the Chi with will alone. Meditation allows the chi to circulate on it’s own or through the disciplined mind, pursue the spiritual. I could go on, but again, this is not about health, It’s about why aren’t the majority of teachers in our art able to fight?
Let’s stay on the topic.

(Maoshan, do an ego check, why the aggressive language and supremist attitude? If you need a forum where people only agree with you, i suggest you start a new thread, or a new site.. but, i would hope your training would have helped you to explore tolerance and develop a spirit of sharing all the aspects of Tai Chi, not just the fighting..)

Ego check?
You got heart man, Look, I’m aggressive, that’s my nature and it’s appropriate in this thread. Besides, Ego? Supremist?
It was you who responded with the loftiness and condemnations because you felt we were wrong with our emphasis on fighting and not on health. You felt that you had to respond, wasn’t that your ego? What makes you think you can teach? Your ego, which is that sense of self-confidence that martial arts training imparts. You better look in the mirror my man.
Tolerance. I have none for those dancing around the issue. Patience is reserved for the things that count (family, friends, training, goals, etc.).
Something I think you’ve misunderstood as well, this thread was not directed exclusively to tai chi practitioners, but all the Nei jia.
I am a Ba-Gua practitioner. But back to your points.
Sharing? I wish I could But I Refuse to step that low. I’m not going to go from college back to elementary school to placate to a bunch of people that don‘t even train in the first place. This is a form of entertainment for them. Most practitioners haven’t even gone through the essential “100 days” of fundamental training to talk of the true things. And if you don’t know what the “100 days” is and you’re teaching, You are most definitely fake because even if you can fight, that’s all you can do. You will never go any higher unless your cup is emptied and you start from the beginning but that’s the fate of the fake.

Besides, the things that you speak of, they can read in any Mag. There are dozens of publications on the topic. How many are on fighting? Too few. Today In the world of martial arts the Internal is a joke that was not the case just 60 yrs ago. Hell, it’s gone from a lone man protecting the Dowenger Empress near the turn of the century to masses of people today practically dancing and waving their hands like clouds. Not if I can help it. Not for you or no one else.

I bare you no malice, but you should ask before you assume. I teach traditionally, and I hold nothing back. But nothing comes before your ready on this there is no compromise. This way assures progress witch is all I’m interested in.

Fighting is something that cannot be overlooked. The men that created these styles were masters that could already control the energy in their bodies. When they created them each technique had a specific type of energy, an energy they were already well experienced in. How does a beginner reach the masters level? By time and experience using the techniques. In other words the form is empty if you don’t know the true way a technique is executed. Physically as well as mentally.

But I’ve gone on a tangent
I’m out
Peace
Maoshan

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thank you for clarifying most of the issues.. indeed, i do agree that fighting is the core of Tai Chi.. my only assertion is that there is much more that supports "the fight"..

Why are most practicioners and teachers unable to fight?.. because they haven't been trained to.. the money wasn't in training fighters, it was in "feel-good social clubs".. the villian is greed, pure and simple..

There are many good fighters out there, even in Tai Chi.. but, few demonstrate the mastery attainable through traditional training.. My point is that fighting alone will never produce evidence of Tai Chi prowess, only a combination of many diciplines.. and only then through hard work and dedication.. my fear is that people will read this thread and mistake a reasonably good fighter selling crappy Tai Chi as the real thing.. I want the reader to understand that Tai Chi is a complex and demanding discipline.. a discipline that ultimately produces a quality human being..

I did not read any malice into your replies on this thread.. i think we each respond with the passion we have for the Arts from our individual perspectives.. I am not agressive by nature, but i am capable and traditionally trained (and, i teach that way as well).. I have been accused of being idealistic enough times to assume there must be some truth to it.. so be it.. i am what i am.. Likewise, i intend no malice, just a forum to express my own passion for the arts..

Be well.. be real..