What about loyalty???

[Bruno Lima Roch]

Dear friends,
it´s Bruno, fromBrasil, student of si-fu Marcello Teixeira (Ma Hei Cao), who´s talkin'. The question is a quiz for something that makes me nuts, makes crazy and **** me off. For me and the kwoon that I belong, louyalty is something essential. LOyalty to the si-fu, to the kwoon and to our deepest roots. Also, the si-fu must be friendly and frankly talks and teaches to his students, no mistery nor magic (should I say fake mimic?!). Ok, I wouldjustlike to hear your opinion about that.
Best regards,
from the South of Brasil
Bruno Lima Rocha

[dezhen2001]

hi i think being loyal to your sifu is important Also a sifu should be approachable by the students as well as being able to explain the skill properly.

its a shame there are many people nowadays who change from one teacher to the other for no real reason... how can you learn any skill that way?

just my thoughts,
dawood

[apoweyn]

its a shame there are many people nowadays who change from one teacher to the other for no real reason... how can you learn any skill that way?

the same way you learn skill in most other disciplines these days. when you go for a ph.d. in english, you don't apprentice yourself to one teacher for eight years. you train for periods of time with various teachers skilled in different facets of the big picture. and you come out having integrated those different facets into your own view. you've shaped your own specialty.

now, i'm not suggesting that the other route is a mistake. far from it. it holds a lot of appeal. but both methods work IF DONE PROPERLY.


stuart b.

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't view loyalty as an all or nothing quality anyway. You can be loyal to your family and your friends, right? Why not your taiji shifu and your judo coach?

[eulerfan]

The people and things I am really loyal to never asked for my loyalty. They never made a big deal about loyalty. They certainly didn't demand it.

They just shut up and earned it.

Maybe I'm missing something but it doesn't really seem like loyalty to me if you are being loyal because you're supposed to be.

However, the importance you place on loyalty may have a lot to do with where you are. In South America, there is a strong tendency toward filial piety. Even here in the U.S., my latino and hispanic friends identify very strongly with the idea of family. It's a big part of how they define themselves.

But, for the most part, in the states and in Europe, there's all this importance placed on autonomy and individuality.

Just look at literature. Gabiriel Garcia Marquez doesn't write about alienation so strong that hell is actually spending eternity with two other people and Jean Paul Sartre doesn't have a Grandmother staying alive with her family for so long she shrinks to the size of a doll the great grandchildren play with.

Societies are weird.

[mono68]

Yes, It is true it sometimes depends on culture. Loyalty in my opinion I have learned is two ways: to have loyalty to something or someone they must also have loyalty to you too. Because, for me to believe,trust I must know that thing or person will do the same. (By thing I mean ideas,concepts such as the topic).

It is hard when you are loyal to someone or a belief and you get screwed for believing.

[fa_jing]

Proper appreciation for having taught you something useful, should be enough. Loyalty has to do more with your personal relationship with the individual, rather than the teacher-student relationship. If you want to go study another style or something, your current teacher shouldn't feel insulted. I just don't see why some teachers feel like their students are obligated to stay with them. If they gave you something that you didn't pay for, sure, but if they are charging you money, then they have been paid for the service and that's that.

[crumpet]

Originally posted by apoweyn

the same way you learn skill in most other disciplines these days. when you go for a ph.d. in english, you don't apprentice yourself to one teacher for eight years.

but getting a ph.d and learning martial arts is hardly the same thing. firstly it doesn't take a life time to become a professor (though u could argue that a GOOD professor is like a GOOD master), and secondly ph.ds don't come with cutural baggage. one must understand that most of what we practice comes from chinese and japanese history. loyalty in both these cultures are of utmost importance. to change that to suit western beliefs is an insult to what we claim to teach. i would think that anyone demanding loyalty is a bit suspect though, most just expect it and if u break that loyalty they aren't really gonna voice it to you. instead they tend to teach u squat and let u move on to other teachers and they in turn would teach u squat if u also broke their loyalty. in the end u have nothing. if u have no family, no alligiances, then wat do u have? yourself? but 1 loner isn't going to hold up against a family. strength in numbers, unity with loyalty.

[KC Elbows]

Some astounding things have been accomplished by individuals.

As for loyalty and asian cultures, although I am a person who has a fairly strong interest in all things asian, I don't think this changes the way I kick, punch, throw, etc., in any way. It makes it easier for me to convince some people to teach me, but that's about all.

And I've seen some bad stuff done in the name of loyalty. Loyalty, like all things, has some good stuff about it and some bad stuff.

So, I'm all for loyalty except for where I'm against it.

[HuangKaiVun]

I love all of my teachers.

They imparted to me great knowledge, and that knowledge shaped me into what I am. For that I will always be grateful.

However, it doesn't require me or them to do evil in the name of loyalty. That doesn't make me love my sifus any less.

Just recently, I picked up Gichin Funakoshi's "Karate Jutsu" and "My Life".

Seeing Funakoshi in b/w photo reminded me so much of my beloved karate sensei Kidachi, a septuagenarian brawler whose lessons I'm only STILL beginning to grasp.

My teachers always teach me, and I'll always do whatever I can to help them short of doing WRONG.

[Budokan]

Loyalty has to be earned. Period.

[TaoBoy]

Loyalty should not impede your ability to study under multiple instructors and discover what other style have to offer.

[joedoe]

Loyalty has to be earned.

I would add to that "and never expected".

I think that what is most important to most teachers - and not just teachers of MA - is that the student is not so much loyal, but is committed to learning what is being taught. This often translates to something like loyalty, but is slightly different.

[GeneChing]

I'd add that loyalty can be expressed in many ways, not just the stereotypical "yes" man. Who is more loyal, the studnet that agrees with his Sifu when he knows he is wrong or the student who disagrees with his Sifu and fights with him about it?

[apoweyn]

crumpet,

but getting a ph.d and learning martial arts is hardly the same thing.

i'm not sure i agree.

firstly it doesn't take a life time to become a professor (though u could argue that a GOOD professor is like a GOOD master)

precisely. it doesn't take a lifetime to become a professor. and a professor is a competent teacher of his or her field. by the same token, it doesn't take a lifetime to be a sifu (sensei, guro, etc.) but as you said, that's different from being a 'master' of your chosen expertise.

a ph.d. takes, what, eight years of higher education. and a black belt, on average, takes between three and five (depending on the school).

and secondly ph.ds don't come with cutural baggage

good point.

one must understand that most of what we practice comes from chinese and japanese history. loyalty in both these cultures are of utmost importance. to change that to suit western beliefs is an insult to what we claim to teach.

now i disagree. yes, it does come from asian history (though my own background pulls more from southeast asia). but there are a couple of forces at work here. for one, our perception of asian cultural values tend to be a bit skewed. what we perceive as 'traditional' is quite often a parody of the real thing. take qi for example. we tend to either completely disqualify it or completely mystify the notion. whereas many genuinely traditional teachers in china might have a far more common sense idea of what it is.

many traditional teachers studied with more than one sifu. that doesn't preclude them having respect and loyalty for each. and it resulted in many of the kung fu styles recognized today. take fut gar, for example. (i'm no expert in kung fu history, mind you.) if the originator of fut gar hadn't studied another style in addition to hung gar (or the other way around), we wouldn't have fut gar. but few people today would consider fut gar an affront to chinese cultural beliefs.

as for it being insulting, i disagree. was it insulting when the okinawans made the modifications resulting in okinawa-te? karate? was it insulting when the japanese further modified those methods, training philosophies, etc. to match their own cultural considerations? perhaps to certain individuals, yes. but it also made possible the emergence of whole other faces of martial arts. shotokan is different from shaolin is different from goju BECAUSE things were changed to meet new beliefs.

i would think that anyone demanding loyalty is a bit suspect though, most just expect it and if u break that loyalty they aren't really gonna voice it to you. instead they tend to teach u squat and let u move on to other teachers and they in turn would teach u squat if u also broke their loyalty. in the end u have nothing. if u have no family, no alligiances, then wat do u have? yourself? but 1 loner isn't going to hold up against a family. strength in numbers, unity with loyalty.

i think this is a somewhat over-romanticized view of the situation. i see nothing at all wrong with pledging your allegiance to one teacher and remaining with him. but the idea that you'll learn nothing if you don't is overstating the case tremendously.

i'm part of a community. the teachers within that community know and respect one another. my teachers commend the desire to learn from different sources. they don't label me 'disloyal', withhold information, and then spread the word so others will do likewise.

is that wrong? no. is it reflective of a culture? perhaps. has the evolution of martial arts been shaped by the reflections of different cultures all along? absolutely.


stuart b.