Yip Mans 4 that he taught it all too!

[yuanfen]

Miles Teg sez:Nah, I think perhaps the knives is not such a big deal
----------------------------------------------------
Not a big deal. A person can be very effective without knowing the knives.Ip Man was unlikely to give out freebies.But chatting can be fun.

But the complete art where Ip man left it does include the knives.
There is a lot to the details.The devil hides in them.
IMO an embarrassingly bad knife demo is in the HK anniversary
CD.

IM would demo bits and pieces of the weapons... but learning the whole knife form from him was indeed a rare deal.
Wong Shon Leung and Ho Kam Ming were two persons who each learneda knife form directly from IM. And, there are some differences even in their perspectives on the circumstances and the number of key motions.. WSL taught the knives to several people.
Some folks got one of HKM's students to show them HKM's form.

Ego leads people to say sometimes that they learned everything directly from IM, whereas they may have learned from each other. ON THE LONG RUN IT DOES NOT MATTER,. Wing chun is so great IMO---there are lots of goodies in the wing chun cafeteria.
Its upto the next generations to develop their own competence
based on teaching, knowledge and above all right practice and to carry on with this great art. Thats what really matters...
Recently, a wing chun sifu said--- if someone wants to learn
"Classical" wing chun- best to go to "heaven" and ask Ip man or
Leung Jan. Even then- communication may not be perfect and execution individualized!!

[Miles Teg]

Theres also that guy that RR talked about once Yeng Ye Bo, or something like that. Maybe you could help me out here RR. The one that died quite young who was a first generation student but also had many private lessons with YM and who Chu Shong Tin said was the one that defeated WSL when he first showed up as a young boy. Or maybe when Yip Man spoke of the four that learned the whole system he was referring to the ones that were alive..... anyway you would think that this guy would have learnt it all based on the discription RR gave.

Private students........I dont think having a lot of money and affording these lessons would mean anything, there is no replacement for diligence. I think YM would put his faith in the people who trained the hardest. Anyway well established WC teachers of today can teach you the forms and everything for a lot of money in a short time but most of them will say that it wont mean much.

Im from TST but I think the one person who we can say learned the whole system with no arguement is WSL as he was the longest student and assistent teacher to YM. So that leaves 3 others.


Does anyone know anything about Lok Yu? I know he is in a wheel chair and was dubbed the king of the pole. But is there anything else? Did he leave many students behind?What is the distinguishing features of his WC?

[Miles Teg]

Yuanfen
No! Theres a better way!
Im am currently working on a time machine that has the ability to take me back to the days when YM was teaching, I will let you know all the details. First I need to learn the Cantonese language and have plastic surgery to look like a chinese fella, but that is just a formality.

[planetwc]

Yip Bo Ching was one of the guys who delivered the initial smackdown to Wong Shun Leung and thereby convinced him to give up boxing and take up Wing Chun.[

QUOTE]Originally posted by Miles Teg
Theres also that guy that RR talked about once Yeng Ye Bo, or something like that. Maybe you could help me out here RR. The one that died quite young who was a first generation student but also had many private lessons with YM and who Chu Shong Tin said was the one that defeated WSL when he first showed up as a young boy. Or maybe when Yip Man spoke of the four that learned the whole system he was referring to the ones that were alive..... anyway you would think that this guy would have learnt it all based on the discription RR gave.
[/QUOTE]

[planetwc]

They are standing together at the grave of Yip Man.
There are more photos of this particular occasion.

There are other photos of the early generation, however folks will have to wait to see them at the Foshan museum.

regards,

David

Originally posted by Grendel


Hi David,

Thanks, and what was the occasion of the photo?

Regards,

[urban tea]

Lok Yiu is in a wheel chair? That's news to me. I know that his son teaches the class in HK and Lok Yiu comes in to watch here adn there.

[yuanfen]

Mile Teg sez:Private students........I dont think having a lot of money and affording these lessons would mean anything, there is no replacement for diligence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
No necessary conflict between diligence and money.
Yip Man had public classes and private lessons.
Advanced teaching occurred in the latter. Diligence was
a neceassry but not sufficient condition for learning.
After 1950 teaching wing chun for a living became very
important after leaving Foshan.

[Tom Kagan]

reneritchie,

Some of Yip Man's early students reportedly learned Kwai Ma. I learned it in SNWCK. It gets harder as you get older (at least it does for me

Um, reportedly? Ah, early students? You mean this, right? John Cheng and Lee Moy Shan, circa 1974. There is a similar picture of Rolf Clausnitzer and Greco Wong in their book from 1969. Do you mean to say Moy Yat and Wong Shueng Lueng, really learned it from Sam Nung? (just teasing you)

Miles Teg,

All these people were supposed to have learnt the knives, but only 4 tell the truth..........................
Nah, I think perhaps the knives is not such a big deal. If you knew everything else well then knowing the knives wouldnt make much difference woud it?
....But I guess there is still the matter of honesty to your students, saying you learnt the knnives from YM when they didnt.

Moy Yat did not claim to have learned the knives from Yip Man. He said Yip Man started him on the knives - sifu always chose his words carefully.

Anyway, I agree with you assesment regarding the knives (So do some of the elders mentioned in this thread, by the way). On Fathers Day, 1999, I was with Moy Yat in his backyard where I learned the "secret" of the knives. Sifu said to me (and I quote): "F#ck the form. Just stick the g@dd@mn things in your hands and practice what you already know. You do that and practice hard you know the knives better than anyone knows a f#cking form. You want to know a form? I got a tape. Me and my SiHings f@cking around with knives. Four forms. You pick." he then started laughing and added: "And try not to kill yourself. Who the h#ll else is gonna come visit me on fathers day?"

Since there seems to be some confusion on your part, The first generation Hong Kong students are (arguably) as follows: Leung Shuen, Lok Yu, Jiu Wan, Man Sui Hung, Yip Po Ching, Chau Kwan Tin, Lee Man.

Shortly after them are: Lee Wing, Lo Ping, Tsui Shang Tin, Lee Nyan Foon, Lo Tai, Ser Me King, Wong Shueng Leung, Lee Chiu (and, I'm sure, a few other more or less unknowns I can't remember offhand).

Those two groups are what I would consider the 1st generation in Hong Kong. They bickered and argued, no question. But their group had a rare dynamic which inspired them ALL to attain the highest levels possible.

Jiu Wan is #3, at least as he defined his position in the family. His peers always bickered about that, though. Frankly, Jiu Wan's insistence as "#3 student" is kind of odd because he, without question from any of his peers, was the first official Sifu from Yip Man's students. Yet, Jiu Wan never looked at it that way. To each his own.

[aelward]

Tom Kagan writes:
> Jiu Wan is #3, at least as he defined his position in the family.
> His peers always bickered about that, though. Frankly, Jiu
> Wan's insistence as "#3 student" is kind of odd because he,
> without question from any of his peers, was the first official Sifu
> from Yip Man's students.

Funny, at least one student of Jiu Wan, Francis Fong (and maybe Jason Lau, too) maintains that their lineage does not come from Yip Man, though it is influenced by him...

One thing is for sure, from what I have seen from students of Jason Lau and Francis Fong, they do have interesting differences from many of the Yip Man lineage teachers in terms of use of knees, footwork, and qin na.

[kj]

Originally posted by aelward
One thing is for sure, from what I have seen from students of Jason Lau and Francis Fong, they do have interesting differences from many of the Yip Man lineage teachers in terms of use of knees, footwork, and qin na.

FWIW. Having had some limited exposure to Francis Fong and his teaching, and some of his students who also teach, I would agree with this observation. Nice guy with a great attitude too, BTW.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[vingtsunstudent]

there were definitely alot more than 4 who learnt the knife and pole form from yip man but does that actually mean they meant or understood how to use them.
i think the whole 4 thing has to do with yip man's complete transmission of the whole thing(knowing an understanding the movements, forms and usages, how to make them work for you and how to pass this knowledge on) and not just who he taught the movements to.
instead of having our heads up our a$$es about things like this why don't we all take the time to think that some things in wing chun can only be understood if you have had to actually use them enough to get the underlying ideas. how many of all these sifu that you speak of went out and fought and discovered exactly how $hit went down and thus fully understood what they were doing, i think this could be esp. true when talking of the weapons.(this may include having to have fought and not actually used the weapon but having had to improvise with something so thus giving them the understanding of it)
do i know who the 4 or 5 or whatever that are supposedly the ones who got and fully understood it all, no.
do i care, not really. and why, because i am atleast safe in the fact that i know that both my sifu and his both tested there wing chun and can offer advice on what will really work and help me to understand how to make it work for me.
if you feel safe that sifu is doing the same for you then i can't see why you are all trying to justify that you are part of a lineage that has it all, whether it be through yours or his sifu.
if you feel safe, then act that way, but i can tell you this, there are alot on this thread that are looking and sounding very nervous trying to justify things.
vts

[Mr. Bao]

Grendal:

I am sorry that you thought my post was sick. I meant it to be honest and trust me I don't wish my family any ill will. Since I love them and they are the most valued thing in my life, I place them as an example of my honesty concerning how Yuan stated just because you study under someone means you are influenced in believing they are greatest.

I studied under Parlati and by no mean if I was his student now I would have place him so high like I did with Duncan Leung or Alan Lee. I was already explained this in my past post. If you think I lack moral character and brought shame to my sifu from my post then you can email him yourself and explain my why my post was sick and ill.

To honest you don't know me and do not know what kind of person I am and what kind of student I am. But that is ok because why should you? Before I left Parlati to join Alan Lee, I went to meet Parlati face to face before class and started to explain why I was leaving his "traditional wing chun" to go study with Alan Lee (modified wing chun in his mind). To tell you the truth he was unhappy, mad, and acted very unprofessional towards me. I gave him face and he didn't respect that but so be it. I do wish him well and hope but will never be on good terms with him it seems. I do not judge traditional wing chun on his behavior but my experience at William Cheung's seminars.

It is all I have to say.

Bao
www.wingchunnyc.com

[cha kuen]

Interesting posts. What does it matter who were the original students? Can't you guys tell by touching or watching who's actually good?

[yuanfen]

Cha Kuen---Wing chun folks---er- like to "discuss"...almost anything about the art. Knowing competence by touching or seeing? You have to know something to understand what you touched or saw IMO.

[cha kuen]

Yuanfan,

I said that because many people want to know who really studied under Yip Man and who really learned it all and such. Why do they want to know? Because they want to see who is good, who is the best.

So let's say John Doe did learn from Yip Man. So what? Does that mean that he is skilled? Go take a look at your kung fu school. All the students in your school ARE learning from your teacher but how many of them are skilled?

Let's say Tat Mau Wong is the greatest choy lay fut guy today. He has a million students. Later his students pass away and only 2 remain. Everyone would think that these 2 were GODS in the CLF world but they are not. What if these 2 surviving students were the laziest ones in the class? That's my point that it doesn't really matter who learend from who as long as he's good.

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