Discussion on weight lifting

[IronFist]

omegapoint said:

Muscles power your body for strength and speed, and done right weightlifting will make you better, faster and stronger. Don't do powerlifting exercise, and stretch while resting between eac set (30 secs. or < ).


Wtf? Why did you say don't do powerlifting exercise? PL'ing makes you stronger and faster than any other kind of weightlifting.


IronFist

[Souljah]

I would have thought it just made you stronger but I didnt think it would speed you up, if anything u'd think it would slow you down.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by IronFist
omegapoint said:

Wtf? Why did you say don't do powerlifting exercise? PL'ing makes you stronger and faster than any other kind of weightlifting.


IronFist

Because I'm a doctor and I know better than you. J/K, but what I said makes perfect sense. Every powerlifter I've known did have good speed, ups and such, with power; after all most have an abundance of fast-fatigueable fibers. The common deficit incurred from short, quick muscle contractions is LOSS OF FLEXIBILITY. Flexibility is often overlooked. How strong is a rubber band that is thick and inflexible? Probably pretty strong, but if used to propel something, you may not get good distance. How strong is a wrist-rocket (slingshot) that uses flexible and durable surgical tubing? Your fist and feet are being "propelled" in a similar way when you strike. Maybe a better analogy would be a caveman's "throwing stick". It would be hard for someone with contracted muscles (a powerlifter) to endure the full extension of an arm or leg-bar.

Powerlifting is bad on the back and joints in the long run. It does make one incredibly strong, but it is hard to transmit this strength to endeavors which require flexible, finesse or supple strength. It is a "specialty" and not a training regimen for athletics per se.

Anyway, dowhatchlike, and "WTF" all day. I'm not gonna be worse off for it. Pick up a good book on A and P (Nettter's Illustrated text is awesome), and a good book on biomechanics. I was forced to learn this stuff in school, but it has definitely helped me in MAs, too. You know that many of the "masters" were physicians, right?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Souljah
I would have thought it just made you stronger but I didnt think it would speed you up, if anything u'd think it would slow you down.

Nope. Not unless you are freakishly huge.

[IronFist]

Italic quotes by omegapoint

How strong is a rubber band that is thick and inflexible? Probably pretty strong, but if used to propel something, you may not get good distance. How strong is a wrist-rocket (slingshot) that uses flexible and durable surgical tubing? Your fist and feet are being "propelled" in a similar way when you strike. Maybe a better analogy would be a caveman's "throwing stick". It would be hard for someone with contracted muscles (a powerlifter) to endure the full extension of an arm or leg-bar.

I'm afraid I don't understand your last sentences there. A powerlifter has contracted muscles? Maybe while he's lifting something. Before I comment on this, please clarify what you mean.

Powerlifting is bad on the back and joints in the long run.

Uh... ok there. You pretty much just lost any credibility you may have had with me. What is your justification for saying this? If it is DL'ing or Squating is bad on the back or knees, please don't bother.

It does make one incredibly strong, but it is hard to transmit this strength to endeavors which require flexible, finesse or supple strength. It is a "specialty" and not a training regimen for athletics per se.

I suppose if ALL someone does is powerlifting, then this may be the case. I don't understand where you get your information that powerlifters are inflexible, however. While many strongmen choose not to stretch before a workout to promote muscle tension, that does not mean they neglect stretching all together. Nearly every powerlifter I've ever seen, professional or recreational, is more flexible than most martial artists I know. I will agree, however, that many forms of strictly powerlifting do not lend themselves well to endurance activities...

Anyway, dowhatchlike, and "WTF" all day. I'm not gonna be worse off for it. Pick up a good book on A and P (Nettter's Illustrated text is awesome), and a good book on biomechanics. I was forced to learn this stuff in school, but it has definitely helped me in MAs, too. You know that many of the "masters" were physicians, right?

Yeah. I also know that most books are not very accurate. I've read enough of the good ones and talked to enough of the right people to know what I'm talking about, however.

IronFist

[Viper555]

omega:I do powerlifting,endurancelifting,and bodywieght exercises so i'm guessing that(in this case)you wouldn't suggest I stop powerlifting.Powerlifting is a good thing when mixed with others as well.Also,I don't beleive all this crap about loss of flexibility from lifting weights.I'm also pretty sure it wont happen to me see I posses a ancient, secret program passes down from generation to generation by the Shaolin Monks known as "Stretching".


cya

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by Viper555
omega:I do powerlifting,endurancelifting,and bodywieght exercises so i'm guessing that(in this case)you wouldn't suggest I stop powerlifting.Powerlifting is a good thing when mixed with others as well.Also,I don't beleive all this crap about loss of flexibility from lifting weights.I'm also pretty sure it wont happen to me see I posses a ancient, secret program passes down from generation to generation by the Shaolin Monks known as "Stretching".


cya

Of course not. If what you do works for you then do it. If your weightlifting program contains all powerlifts then your training may be counter productive. The flexibilty thing and weightlifting is a joke, but a lot of bodybuilders and powerlifters do not stretch. Stretching is a very good secret Shaolin tech, hahaha!

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by IronFist
Italic quotes by omegapoint

I'm afraid I don't understand your last sentences there. A powerlifter has contracted muscles? Maybe while he's lifting something. Before I comment on this, please clarify what you mean.

Have you ever seen a person with contracted muscles? By contracted I mean their ROM (range of motion) is severely decreased due to neglect or heavy powerlifting. I have a powerlifter in my dojo who can't even touch the back of his traps. with his hands to "remove" a two-handed rear strangle.

Uh... ok there. You pretty much just lost any credibility you may have had with me. What is your justification for saying this? If it is DL'ing or Squating is bad on the back or knees, please don't bother.

I don't have to prove anything to you. You can take what I say with a grain of salt, but repetitive deadlifts and 90o squats are bad, very bad for all joints especially the knees and back. Believe what you want, but it's science fact.


I suppose if ALL someone does is powerlifting, then this may be the case. I don't understand where you get your information that powerlifters are inflexible, however. While many strongmen choose not to stretch before a workout to promote muscle tension, that does not mean they neglect stretching all together. Nearly every powerlifter I've ever seen, professional or recreational, is more flexible than most martial artists I know. I will agree, however, that many forms of strictly powerlifting do not lend themselves well to endurance activities...

The guys who add powerlifting to their regimen are no stronger than the guys who do strictly plyometric exercise and regular, moderate weightlifting, at least where I work out. Why do such hard training unless you are getting paid millions (like an NFL player)? No need for a martial artist to train for bodily wear and tear.


Yeah. I also know that most books are not very accurate. I've read enough of the good ones and talked to enough of the right people to know what I'm talking about, however.

Don't people write books? The Anatomy and Physiology book I was referring to is used by every Med. School in the nation. I hope it isn't wrong, and since it is straight forward A-n-P, I would doubt seriously that it is. That last statement made you lose all credibility with me. Not that you really had any in the first place. You can only know what exists in your reality. Ask the Muslims, Jews, Christians and Buddhists.

Final Say

[rogue]

OmegaPoint is right. I have a friend who is an Olympic powerlifter and he told me that the flexibility of a martial artist would be dangerous for him. For him it's as much stability as possible.

[Viper555]

So you're saying that regular weight lifting will make you just as strong as powerlifting?

[IronFist]

omegapoint said

Have you ever seen a person with contracted muscles? By contracted I mean their ROM (range of motion) is severely decreased due to neglect or heavy powerlifting. I have a powerlifter in my dojo who can't even touch the back of his traps. with his hands to "remove" a two-handed rear strangle.

That sucks. He must not stretch very much. I've seen people with tight muscles before, but if you're a doctor as you say I don't think you would use "contracted" to describe it, because contracting a muscle is different from a tight muscle with a small ROM.

but repetitive deadlifts and 90o squats are bad, very bad for all joints especially the knees and back. Believe what you want, but it's science fact.

Please prove this fact to me. Sources or something.

The guys who add powerlifting to their regimen are no stronger than the guys who do strictly plyometric exercise and regular, moderate weightlifting, at least where I work out.

You must work out at Bally's or something. Powerlifting will produce muscles that are capable of generating more tension and therefore stronger than the muscles trained by other forms of lifting. So either a) the people at your gym suck, b) are just beginning PL'ing, or c) aren't following a very good program.

Why do such hard training unless you are getting paid millions (like an NFL player)? No need for a martial artist to train for bodily wear and tear.

That's like saying why do martial arts if you're not going to fight in UFC. Powerlifting isn't that hard, per se. It hurts less than bodybuilding and more popular forms of weight lifting.

Don't people write books?

Uh, yeah.

The Anatomy and Physiology book I was referring to is used by every Med. School in the nation. I hope it isn't wrong,

There's lots of book used in schools that contain errors... some history books... what about medicine manuals from the 1800's, would you swear by their accuracy? I'm not questioning the date or the information of the book you mentioned. I'm just saying "because I read it in a book" does not solidify an argument unless you can back it up.

That last statement made you lose all credibility with me.

Oh well.

Not that you really had any in the first place. You can only know what exists in your reality. Ask the Muslims, Jews, Christians and Buddhists.

Wow, you just broke my relevance meter.

Based on what you have to say, your knowledge of weight lifting appears elementary at best. Tell me about how can I work my lower abs by doing hanging leg raises?

Ok, new person.

Viper555 said

So you're saying that regular weight lifting will make you just as strong as powerlifting?

No. I gaurantee you this is not the case.

Ok, time to elaborate. By "regular weight lifting" I assume you mean something like what most people do at the gym... 4-8 sets of 6-12 reps or whatever. The generally accepted belief is that "people lift weights to get bigger" and as a result, the routines you see most people do are based off of bodybuilding routines (which are generally flawed in the first place).

Anyway, the general routines you read in magazines, or the advice you will get from the average person (or martial artist) in the weight room will not make you as strong as powerlifting.

You get what you train for. If you do not train for maximal strength (which is powerlifting, by definition), you will not achieve maximal strength.

IronFist

[iron thread]

Some of us just can't afford to buy all that equipment. Body weight exercise gives results, and with my scheduling, it keeps me content.

[stoli]

Hmmm, interesting discussion.

This certainly shows the difference between 'book' knowledge and experience !!

As said previously only going to the extremes of muscle mass will limit your flexibility unless you're slack on your stretching or simply don't do effective stretches after your workouts. The problem is that lots of casual weightlifters don't do effective stretches !! They tend to rely on what they see others doing rather than a bit of research, and we all know how bad that can be in a gym !!

As long as you keep stretching then your ROM will not suffer from powerlifting or any form of weight training.

The example of the powerlifter from omegapoint isn't a good one as I'm sure we've all seen novices in the kwoon who are stiff beyond belief and certainly aren't musclebound, just untrained !!

Omegapoint, you also answer your own problem about squats and deadlifts messing with your joints. If you get a good book on body mechanics you can perform squats and deadlifts in a way that is 'natural' for the body, this isn't gonna do damage as long as you stick to good form. The basic rule is, as always, it's not the exercise that damages you it's doing the exercise badly !!

You seem to be an orthopaedic doctor Omegapoint and I'm sure that the people you see who've scr*wed their joints do it when they first start out training or at that point when they get a bit over keen, looking for poundages over technique !! The curse of many in the gym.

Now come on Ironfist, play nicely, we all know that hanging leg raises don't work your lower abs, you need reverse crunches for that !!!

Maybe Omegapoint can finally tell you how to work those problem lower pecs !!!

[KnightSabre]

I don't know about this whole power versus regular weight lifting thing.

What I can do is tell you my own experience from the weight lifting I've done.
I'm 6'0, arround 220 (good fat % not too cut ,have a visible pack).

I'm very flexible,flat in the splits,can roll on my back and put my knees next to my head,can put my one arm over my shoulder and link fingers with my other arm behind my back.

With my workout I can bench 375 for 3,
I can standing bar curl 165 for 3,
I can shoulder press 180 for 3. (We've just started shoulder press).

I know thats no where near as strong as powerlifters but I think for my size it's quite strong,being a grappler it certainly helps me alot when my apponent out weighs me,often I find the guy is bigger than me but I'm still stronger.That would never have been possible if it wasn't for the gym program my partner and I follow.The scary thing is we've climbed from benching 242 to 375 in less than a year with the new program.And I haven't lost any flexibility either.

Oh ya,I do stretch at least 3 times a week for about 15 minutes at a time.

[Ford Prefect]

The guys who add powerlifting to their regimen are no stronger than the guys who do strictly plyometric exercise and regular, moderate weightlifting, at least where I work out.

You must work out at Bally's or something...

LOL! That cracked me up.

Anyhoo, powerlifting and such will not make you less flexable or injure your joints. That is scientific fact. Incorrect form while performing these exercises will though.

Incorrect form while benching can stress the shoulder and/or the elbow to the point of damage. Incorrect form while squatting can stress the knees, hips, and back to the point of damage well. You have to have good form to make good progress. Case closed.

The problem with this is that most people don't want to spend the time under very "unmasculine" weights to perfect form and build the extreme range strength/flexability needed to perform these lifts correctly. They'll jump right in to weights that they can lift poorly. They may not be injured right away, but we all know what happens when you build a house on a shaky foundation...

Weightlifting hampering flexability is also the biggest crock I've heard in a very long time. I can't beleive it would come from a doctor. I guess it's just a case of all theory and no practice. Regular stretching will prevent this from ever happening. Of course their are those bahemouths that are just too big to be able to move. I'd say they are the exception rather than the rule. Most people won't have to worry about becoming 300 lbs muscle men.