CMA and the Streets?

[Yung Apprentice]

While reading the post on which styles would be good for Law Enforcement, I noticed many recommended styles outside of CMA. (although Chin-Na was often mentioned) The majority of the styles recommended were JMA. Law Enforcement officers have to use this out on the street. Since the majority recommended JMAs, does that mean many of you think CMAs won't work very well out on the streets? (outside of chin-na)

[SevenStar]

As I said in that thread, it's not the style, but the format of training. I can box and grapple and learn to defend myself effectively long before I could by training in a CMA in most cases, due to the way those arts are taught.

[Yung Apprentice]

Whats your opinion on the format of training in CMA in general?

[SevenStar]

I like it, but it's slower. That seems to apply doubly if you are training something like hsing-i.

learning a single technique, or a small set of them, doing them with power, learining applications and moving training drills, partner drills, partner drills with power, forms, light fighting, medium contact fighting, harder contact.... the progression is too slow for someone who needs to learn effective techniques ASAP

[Yung Apprentice]

I wonder if the others who posted feel the same way.

[SevenStar]

I'm sure at least a handful do. I can think of a few...

[LEGEND]

Most CMA are striking arts...watching cops...they simply TACKLE and HOLD an opponent down till another cops come rolling. Looks like PURE WRESTLING( no submissions ) to me.

[Bolt]

My view...CMA takes many, many moons to learn and do correctly. Law enforcement does not have the time (etc.) to allow for this therefore foucs is put on holds (control techniques), strikes and takedowns that can be taught and learned quickly. They don't incorporate an entire system, only those techniques that can be learned and used effectively in and expeditious manner.

[Merryprankster]

SHOULD it take that long or is it a product of the prevalent training mindset?

I personally believe the latter.

[ewallace]

Sure CMA can be and is effective in the streets. But it usually takes a while to become effective. And with all of the cameras, civil rights groups and lawyers around these days it is generally frowned upon when a L/E officer starts chain punching a teenager in the back of the head because he was running away with a can of spray paint in his hand.

[Lowlynobody]

A kung fu person should be able to use the techniques from the first form (depending on the size of the form) in their system effectively within say 2 months. Else you’re not training hard enough.

Though I have met people who know a bunch of forms but have no idea how to use them against a resisting opponent and think that some of the techniques are useless or are near impossible to execute. And I'm talking simple stuff.

Then you move on and learn other more effective techniques or combinations of techniques that are much harder for the opponent to evade and counter. This is the process that takes some time.

So I agree with Merryprankster. One could be effective in a CMA in a short period of time but it depends on the method of training. I also agree with ewallace in that a cop on the news pheonix-eye-ing a perp into oblivion would look a little excessive =)

[bob10]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
SHOULD it take that long or is it a product of the prevalent training mindset?

I personally believe the latter.

I agree with you. I think that generally there is a massive over-emphasis on forms training. I realise that in a commercial environment people will cater to "what the public wants" but I don't think it makes for effective teaching of basic skills - even more so when you are dealing with the more "ritualised" type of form.

Since changin from that approach I've found that students improve a lot quicker overall as the emphasis is now constantly on working principles ina more spontaneous environment. Students spend less time worrying about if their hand is in the "right place" and more time learning to maintain the principles under pressure.

Whether CMA were always taught as they are today I don't know. I suspect not as it seems to me, reading the old stories, that people didn't spend 15 years training before becoming effective. Also if people were training bodyguards and the like, 15 years would be way too long!

[No_Know]

I'm thinking the techniques can be mimicked then practiced and fine-tuned to effectiveness. Wing Chun supposedly was efficient and could be used soon after learned. The trainings or practice make it more effective though.

Shaolin had a healing/meditation perspective. Others just wanted the fighting that grew from the healing and meditation. The stance work an other long whatevers might be the meditation or healing development aspect (besides a foundation for superior performance).

But the truth is irrelevant to me here. I learned it for the sake of it. The different aspects don't matter because I get it much.

Law enforcement people hitting gets bad P R. Eagle Claw locking techniques as taught by Sifu Lilly Lau seem appropriate for Law Enforcement peoples. Thy were designed for police to subdue...Theoretically.

Those just happen to be Chin-Nas.

[Former castleva]

Yeah.
Such techniques of the old which might have been very appropriate for current situations including possibly defeating the opponent are not even always appropriate for tougher situations of these days are hardly appropriate for police.
I guess this is where certain grappling and restraining methods are really great.When it comes to striking,a nightstick to knee may be OK but a knee to head may not be justified.

But I think KF and styles like hapkido which I mentioned (which can strike and hurt a hell but which have tons of locking then which can either separate or just help to cooperate.)

[MonkeySlap Too]

It depends.

Shuai Chiao is taught to the police in Taiwan and the PRC. There is an old saying that translates as: "One year of Shiuai Chiao is as good as three years of other fist arts".

Someone training directly with me, who has basic conditioning and some heart, can be a good fighter in six months.

But to really be able to develop 'kung fu', as Seven said, takes much longer.

I also find that the CMA paradigm is so different from the Western one that it takes longer for Westerners to get the purpose of thier training. And most people are way to lazy to train like they should. Heck, high school wrestlers train harder than most martial arts types.

I agree witm Merryprankster that thre prevelant mindset does work against most CMA schools, but I would add that most CMA schools do not understand thier material to begin with. I see WAY to many forms collectors and magical chi hippies out there. That is NOT proper CMA training methodology.

So yeah - secretivness due to confucian influence, ignorance, and fraud are the biggest challenges faced by CMA.

On the other hand, there are plenty of good CMA - but most are not easily fit into the 'don't hurt the suspect' mind set. It's hard to explain why you busted the guys sternum if he turns out to be innocent...