hsing i chuan questions

[RAIN]

hello


i am from southamerica and i'll going to start learn hsing i , and i got some curiosity questions . i got a solid fundation in southern shaolin and i ask myself how can be a internal system .

1 - in shaolin you learn stances , fist and legs first , what first you learn in hsing i ? how much are the basics punches or basic kicks ? how much are his stances ? how looks like ?

2 - what is the most difficult side of hsing i ?
3 - what is the most beautifoul thing about hsing i ?

thank you for reading my post .

[crumble]

Hi Rain,

I've been doing hsing i for one year.

We began by learning how to perform each of the five basic punches while standing still. The biggest emphasis was on extending the legs, straightening the spine, and extending the arms all at the same time. This is the foundation for coordinated power. (~4 months)

Then we did stepping drills. We did each of the five punches while springing forward off of the back foot. This adds your body weight to all the punches. (~4 months) Of course you still have to practice the standing punches.

Then we started doing two man drills in which you learn to simultaneously deflect an incomming punch and counter with your punch. (~4 months) You still have to practice the stepping punches.

Now we are starting to learn a form.

The hardest thing is getting your body to move as a single unit and not hit with your arm like in traditional western boxing. That's the bottom line for developing power in hsing i. It's hard because you have to be perfectly coordinated and powerful and relaxed at the same time. Sometimes training gets so boring because there are really only five moves that you are training. But there are so many details that need to be correct.

But every so often you get a breakthrough, you make a big jump in being coordinated. The power feels natural and easy. And that's what makes it beautiful.

-crumble

[Muppet]

I don't know anything about the honan branch of hsing i (10 animals), but in Shanxi or Hebei, this is what you're likely to see:

1). Standing postures are first, where you're supposed to learn how to develop internal power.

Most commonly it is the san ti posture, but it can also be some variant of horse stance. In at least one hsing i school (actually, hsin i, heart-mind as opposed to form-mind), the first thing you learn is the squatting monkey stance, where the emphasis is in learning to use and develop the "three bows" for power (especially the dan tien).

In addition to the standing posture, you may also learn certain chi kung and/or nei gung exercises.

At some point, you will start learning the five element fists and then progress from there to linking the five element fists (i.e., combinations) and push hands and then the animals and weapons.

2). I don't have much experience, but imho, the most difficult part of hsing i thus far is learning to develop the internal power via the standing exercises.

As important as it may be, standing practice is REALLY boring.

Also, from what I can gather, just simply standing for a long time doesn't do the trick. Aside from the mental aspects, I think the practitioner is supposed to learn to coordinate the three bows--legs, dan tien/belt-line, upper back and slowly cultivate being able to store and release power from these "three bows" in unison. This all takes time and I'm definitely not there yet.

3). If you mean what's the most aesthetically pleasing in hsing-i....really, nothing. None of the animal or weapons forms that I've seen as of yet are graceful or beautiful to the eye, though the snake form doesn't look too bad.

If you mean what do you most appreciate about hsing i, then I have to say its directness is what one can appreciate the most.

The typical hsing i curriculum is supposedly designed so that you can get to the sparring stage relatively quickly--say about two to three years as opposed to taiji which takes on the order of five years. Of course, you're basically sparring with the five element fists and not the animals, but as someone said in a different thread, you almost don't need to learn the animals to fight as long as you learn the five elements in depth.

And once you get good w/ the five elements, you really only concentrate on one or two animals that suit YOUR physical make-up. That is, unless you're trying to master the entire style (e.g., for teaching purposes).

Also, its no-nonsense mentality and lack of physical beauty tends to keep away the holier-than-thou flakes that plague taiji and bagua.

This isn't to say hsing i doesn't have its fakers. It certainly does and so as far as you're concerned, any teacher who pushes all-out sparring as of secondary importance should be passed over, or at least be highly suspect. Naturally, you're not going to make throat shots or eye gouges, but you don't want a highly restrictive and useless sparring as found in tae kwon do.

But even the "hard-core" fighters who encourage all-out sparring must be suspect, because a lot of people tend to resort to regular muscle power using the forms for its tactics, in which case you're better off learning something like muay thai or good-ol' shaolin.

Well, I've said more than enough. I hope that helps.

[GeneChing]

I first studied a little Xingyi under Sifu Wing Lam. He was dabbling in it to fill out his Sun Taiji studies, so we were just experimenting really. But we started in santi, then worked throught the fists.

Now I study Xingyi under Sifu Tony Chen. He showed me santi and the fists, but then we moved pretty quickly to applications and sparring drills. Once I get a piece of the fighting app, he moves my back into the form. I take privates, so I'm not sure he teaches everyone like this, although he is generally very application-driven.

Anyway I hated learning Xingyi the first way. I never got anything out of it but more dance moves. But I love it now. Moving from applications to form and back again is the way to go. MInd you, this is not a reflection on my masters, just what worked for me.

[CD Lee]

3). If you mean what's the most aesthetically pleasing in hsing-i....really, nothing. None
of the animal or weapons forms that I've seen as of yet are graceful or beautiful to the
eye, though the snake form doesn't look too bad.

Interesting comment/observation. I think this has a lot more to do with the school or teacher than the style itself. In our school, Xingyi is very smooth and graceful. That has been one of my most difficult strugles. I tend to want to get tight and jerky myself. Even when I think I am smooth, my Sifu will tell me to get it smoother. And when they do Xingyi, it is very nice to watch, very smooth and relaxed. I would describe it as flowing energy.

You will notice the various Xingyi people here on this forum either stomp their recovery steps, or use a very smooth recovery step. I can imagine there is a difference in the rest of thier basic technique as well in regards to how smooth they operate the five fists.

I have also noticed that Mike Patterson's Xingyi is less smooth than other styles that I have seen. I am not saying it is wrong, it is just different. And it most likely has a lot more to do with the practitioner than anything else.

[Ray Pina]

"You will notice the various Xingyi people here on this forum either stomp their recovery steps, or use a very smooth recovery step"

Great observation! That stomping sends the power to the ground. The step should be smooth, so the power generates from the back leg through the body to the fist to the person's chin.

My experince under my master has been the most pleasant I ever had martially. Screw form. He showed me POW!-quan. Bear. How to use Bear power in punching. Big knock out punch, then how to connect it with stepping, and then delivering that from a protective shield. Of corse this goes deeper into intersecting lines and all that, but ...

Then tiger energy, how to shoot out the entire arm with power while maintaing a strong shape/leverage.

Then eagle power, what I call "bat speed", that little scoop or sweep at the end of a good uppercut, overhand, cross, ect.

Hsing-I, to me, is more about discovering sources of power and how to deliver heavy blows effectively and very economically. It is the best no nonsense system I have ever seen. To the outside, it looks like western boxing. But, I'd put my money on a Western boxer over 99% of the world's "martial artists".

Hsing-I is great. You're going to love it and feel like a wrecking ball in no time flat. After nearly two years, I would say I've improved 500% in power, and a lifetime in mindset.

Hsing-I works, plane and simple.

My master is exploring Horse with me now. After this I will be shown Dragon, and then I have his garantee that I will be ready. I'll post again at that point, because then I'll need some help from forum members.

[Muppet]

I have to disagree. I don't see anything aesthetically graceful or beautiful about hsing i forms; certainly, I don't see anything dance-like abuot it, and I think much of this has to do with hsing-i's aggressive/minimalist mindset.

My hsing i practice is also slow and soft--in fact, my instructor emphasizes to keep it soft and slow, like tai ji.

However, whatever hsing i school you choose, the old masters emphasize to keep the front foot/knee, the fists and your nose in a a straight line and to keep the arms/elbows close to the heart.

All this makes for a compact, oblique body.

Furthermore, unlike bagua, hsing i foot work and concentration tends to be forward and linear and there isn't much in the way of body twisting and turning, at least not to the levels that bagua employs.

Unlike yang style taiji, hsing i does not employ big open and close body (and therefore, arm) movements but tends to remain compact.

And unlike bagua or taiji, all of the circular body movements and spirals are very subtle, unlike what you learn in bagua or taiji.

Thus, at a casual glance and functionality aside, hsing i looks very much like say karate but with a weird stance.

But as long as it works, what do I care?

When I spar or fight, the last thing on my mind would be whether I look good.

[Daredevil]

Hey, it's EF. Good to see you back, even if that's once in a blue moon.

[fa_jing]

Hey Crumble - does Choi Sifu teach the stomping or the pushing method??

[Ray Pina]

Muppet, while I agree elbows should always be down and compact -- everything compact -- can you tell me that when you're fighting your foot/knee/nose and hand always line up?

My knee will be behind the heel so as to not loose the pulling angle or to prevent myself from being pulled, but when throwing a huge cannon fist, elbow down, shield up, controlling the other's position, is all I care about. The foot goes where it goes, hopefully it goes somewhere that hurts the other guy.

When holding a static posuture, fine. But I think sometimes" the words of wisdom" from the oldtimers can be looked into too deeply.

Consider Hsing-I's zig-zag stepping while performing cannon fist. Already the alignment of foot/knee/knose/fist is broken. In fact, I hope to have my head well outside of the person's gate, almost passing them, but the fist firmly planted on their chin.

Of course everything could align, or can even go so far as to say should (though I don't know about that) but certainly in motion, who can say? Just a thought.

Ray

CD LEE. I knew you were a Hsing-I guy today when you talked about grabbing some TKD guy's neck and uprooting him. As soon as uproot was implied, I knew

[taijiquan_student]

Hey, taiji has uprooting, too.

[CD Lee]

CD LEE. I knew you were a Hsing-I guy today when you talked about grabbing some TKD guy's neck and uprooting him. As soon as uproot was implied, I knew

Ok, I gotta admit, Xingyi has given me a new mindset. Win or loose, at this point, I am going to your center, and you are getting blasted off your spot! You may kick my @ss, otherwise, you are getting your @ss blasted out of there.

You bet. I am not afraid of anyone, even if they can destroy me. I am not thinking of poking a punch in and watching to see what happned and stopping. If I throw, baby, it is coming hard, and it will not stop until I am through driving your @ss into the ground. This is my Xingyi mindset today...maybe my Sifu will change that over time, but he is the one who put it there today.

And I gotta say this...it feels so great. I don't worry about a lot now. I know what I am going to do when it happens. I could care less if I win now, I know what I am going to do, so let it be.

Also, when I think of sparring based on what I have seen at TKD schools, it is such a no brainer. I cannot spar that way. I will charge in balanced, and grab his friggin throat, and lift his @ss off the ground and slam him. Then the fun starts right? I'm sick

[Bruno Lima Roch]

Che, take a look n our website, I'm writting from PortoAlegre, am "gaucho" like you and our site is in portuguese:
www.xingyitchuen.com.br.

All of your doubts can be answered there (at least our ersion of the truth).
But, the most beautiful thing in Xing Yi is bein' a pure an old hard-core martial art. We incorporate the WILL in everything we do, commanded by our MIND, stimulated by the SPIRIT. Xing Yi is nothingmore than this, besdes the tecniques. It's the same of shouting in the hills in XIXth century:
"q loparió los gringos q se nos vienen carajo!" Fightin' with Xing Yi is the same of being fighting with a spear and a horse ina a mountain,doesn't matter against who or what.Che, Xing Yi is for gauchos, believeme.
Best regards,
desde los pagos vecinos del sur brasilero,
Bruno Lima Rocha (hijo de la sangre de Sepé, mi biblia es el Martin Fierro; student of Marcello Teixeira).

[crumble]

Originally posted by fa_jing
Hey Crumble - does Choi Sifu teach the stomping or the pushing method??

I'm not sure what you mean by pushing method, but I think this will answer your question. The "punch" is done fast and follows the pattern:

*Spring off the back leg, while straightening the spine and rotating the waist. This is the punch. It should hit while your front foot is in the air. (That way the weight of the body is behind the punch.)

*Drop the entire body on the front foot. This is the stomp. It's for crushing the foot or displacing the guy's legs.

*Pull in the back leg and rebalance on it. This puts you back in ready position.

Of course in actually it just looks like whooAMPP!!!, not three separate moves.

-c

[Muppet]

EvolutionFist,

When you're sparring or fighting, things aren't going to be so neat.

BUT, the better you are, the easier it will be to adhere to the fundamental principles when you move in for the kill.

No one said it's easy.

But it's to your benefit to adhere to the basics. The closer everything lines up, the more power you're able to direct into whatever you're hitting with less effort on your part..

And the closer things line up and the more oblique your body is, the less likely it is for someone hitting YOUR body to do an appreciable amount of damage.

Furthermore, by linking things up, one take advantage of more of the "seven stars". You miss with the fist, so what? You have six other stars you can use to do some sort of damage.

For instance, our instructor teaches us that when we move in for the kill (five elements), tuck in our head/chin and use it (though you still have to look straight ahead at your opponent).
This does several things:
1). It better protects the throat.
2). It makes the face a smaller target by exposing more of the hard forehead and top-portion of the skull.
3). It allows you to smash your forehead into the opponent's face even while you're punching (choose your elemental poison).

But all of this detracts from the main point: Slow and soft or hard and impulsive, in my opinion, I don't see anything aesthetically pleasing about the hsing i forms.

On the other hand, its direct, practical mindset puts a smile to my face