Chin na: Generally useful?

[GeneChing]

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[SPJ]

In response to the first post:

1 Most if not all Qin Na can be countered.

2 Mostly we want to end the fights ASAP. So we either do Qin Da or Qin Shuai.

We end grappling with a strike or a throw.

3. Joint locks are dangerous and banned in all fight tourney. Unless, you set them as end games and the opponent taps out.

Due to possible dislocation of joints, they are not allowed.

[GeneChing]

See our TAI-CHI-CHIN-NA-by-Dr-Yang-Jwing-Ming-winners thread.

[mawali]

Actually, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Generalizing and discarding form-particulars is also true for striking, but I can definitely see why that's critical in chin na.

However, given that I only have so much time to practice--especially with a partner--I think you've answered my question.

I'll concentrate on getting good with the striking for now and work on the chin na applications if and when I have time in the future.

Thanks.

1. You have setup, followup then application.
2. You should be able to punch/strike and kick
3. Applying chin na from the git go is bad choice on a 'fresh" opponent
4. add throwing (shuai) and they are all equal providing you are adept at usage and you used based on opportunity and conditioning (or lack of) for both parties.

[boxerbilly]

I was going to say, if you guys can catch punches and lock them up, you are far better than anyone I have ever seen. I can't imagine Chin Na-ing any punch ever tossed at me in boxing or on the street, unless you count catching it with your face and locking it with your mouth. Ive done that a lot. I don't recommend it. It's a lousy method really.

But Gene summed up nicely. Very hard to do, in like, probably never going to happen and the finer Chin Na skills will probably not work at all against a resisting opponent. For Gene I suspect even harder because he has to do his best to not only not get hurt but ideally not hurt the person needing to be restrained. Something I would never do. Hats off to you. I worked in a hospital. My only response to anyone going off on me would be to punch the heck out of him. Then I get fired and sued.

Thankfully, my position did not require my having to manhandle patients.

[boxerbilly]

Gene's experience makes one consider. Should you continue learning potentially useless technique or do you learn it as shown and hope you can still apply it under duress? Or, do you totally scrap and or modify the techniques and train those modification only? It is like Frank Trejo talking about the ideal and the real deal. Parkers ideal is the 2 man techniques. The real deal means those techniques will probably look nothing like you practiced them. The basics or individual techniques may still retain the same quality and look as in the 2 man technique.

I was from the school of scrap that crap and train only what will come up and more likely will work. Get it basic. Keep it brutal. Hard and fast. BUT, and in my youth I was stupid. I almost always settled things via left rights. Save a few front kicks. Unlike the it always goes to the ground and grapples. Not a single time did anything I consider a fight ever have that happen. And, I spent years training for the life and death battle that never happened. I look back and thank, what a flocking waste of time. Training combatives crap.

I never gouged an eye. Chopped a throat. Kicked a knee broke. And all those times , I could have walked. I chose not to. The one time I actually needed any of this and I was with 2 guy and one of them was far superior to me at fighting. We got mugged. Out numbers at least 2 to 1. Knives and bats. We did NOTHING. They took what they wanted ( street tax) and split. We went home unharmed.

Now, if I was in Genes position, I would highly consider training grappling more heavily. Many hospital do give basic classes in restraint techniques but the classes are few and far between and I expect not real intensive.

Anyway, I no longer care to much about self defense and fighting in general. I did me time with the gloves on. Looking back not sure if that was a waste of my time too? I liked it then even if a lot of times I was scared. At almost 50 I have no desire to get punched in the head a couple of hundred times a week.

The choices we make.......ask yourself why and go from there. I really think I wasted a huge amount of time in many ways.

[Jimbo]

Chin na in CMA is part of the potential force continuum. Not every situation requires a full-out response. Sure, it can be devastating if applied to its logical end. But IMO, it's mostly practical in circumstances where the other person is not an overly great threat, i.e., an unarmed, aged professor who gets drunk and starts running amok at a faculty party. Or in instances, such as in law enforcement, etc., where it's necessary to try to control a suspect rather than to break his head open, and usually involving multiple officers on one suspect. Some simple, basic chin na could work well in such situations.

It would be *very* difficult if not impossible to apply in the heat of a fight with a determined, aggressive attacker. The idea of catching a (real) punch is pretty much a fantasy.

[Fa Xing]

Tim Cartmell has mentioned to me on many occasions of knowing a lot of Chin Na techniques (somewhere around the 300 area) but said he has only found about 6 to be actually useful. I've only really gotten a chin na technique after punching them in the face, or taking them down and slapping it on there which is referred to as submission grappling.

[boxerbilly]

I am very impressed with Cartmell. He is also a San Soo guy. Has made some great books and videos. Kudos to that guy!

[ShaolinDan]

Some good answers from way back at the beginning of this thread...

Basically, "chin na" as a collection of hundreds of locks--not so useful. "Chin na" as an intimate understanding of how the body's skeleton and tissue connect, and move--extremely useful.

[Subitai]

Thing about this is most people think of Chin Na as joint locks and for all intents and purposes: some variety of standing chin na at that....NOT ALL YOU GUYS OF COURSE. I'm speaking of the proverbial "THEY".

But it's not really that of course...I was taught that it's anytime you're seizing and holding someone = usually in a vulnerable or compromised position. Can it be literal joint locks? Yes but not always. For example, you hold a guys arm behind his back to control him, yet you're not actually applying pain towards a joint.

Looking at it in that regard, more people (especially grapplers) are able to pull off some useful Chin Na far more often than they realize.


I think Jim and anyone else that mentioned or alluded to the problem of catching a punch is "spot on". That is however always the critical point or crux of the matter isn't it? Entry if you're offensive or reactionary if you like to counter...but either way, it works best if you know how to set the guy up and he gives it to you. For a Tai Chi guy or any style that relys on establishing a "Stick point" or "Bridge"....their bane is literally Mohamed Ali i.e. "Float like a butterfly sting like a bee". Meaning if you cannot establish the necessary contact, it's very difficult to get started.

From my own experience it always works better if you know how to set it up such that the person GIVES you the energy, then it's quite easy to do. I cannot say GIVE enough because if you work these things as much as I do you start to realize when the right times are to apply it and then it becomes easier at that point. Not full proof because nothing ever is, but a much better chance yes.

Often most people sense that you're about to do some sort of Chin Na and then Stiffen up or become strong to counter it...and it almost always works in defeating the chin na attempt. (at least for that particular window) However if you're good, you know what to do when they become "IRON MAN STIFF" and you take advantage of that. Either that, or just accept that it won't work and keep fighting until the next opportunity presents itself....which it always does. Just like a good boxer, who keeps setting up his combinations...eventually they can work for him.


Dos pesos, "O"

[MarathonTmatt]

some guy tried to sucker punch me from behind once, while we were both walking away in opposite directions. i sort of got in his face and "danced" around him originally because he wasn't giving anybody else any space to walk around him which i thought was quite rude. i used a chin na technique to catch his punch, take him down and get him in a joint lock (using control not to break anything because in this case, thank god, it wasn't necesary)- but given the long-range distance of his sucker-punch it was easy to grab him off balance. A matter of not taking my eyes off this one. control the elbow and the wrist- one of the technique's from chen style tai chi i used early on in my push hands training taught by my teacher Dr. Aihan Kuhn and her students.

Looking back I realize I should have practice self control and not get agitated when people act like king-sht punks.

Push hands is a wonderful compliment to sparring- an extra sensitivity training.