Chin na: Generally useful?

[Muppet]

This is a question for you guys that have really fought.

I know joint locking has its place, especially if you're a police officer or in a litigious society and can't afford to damage the other person.

Or if you're in a social gathering where someone gets rowdy and you don't want to destroy the person.

But in a fight or competition, do you have the luxury to apply chin na techniques?

I've found that grabbing a punch that is thrown and applying a joint lock is initially difficult in a drill, though I imagine one eventually gets good at it. But drills are artificial and when the opponent is free to strike as they like, the limb may not come out in the way you need.

So I guess what I'm really wondering is, do you guys mainly concentrate on strikes with maybe one or two tried and true chin na techniques, or do you find having a larger repetoire of joint lock techniques to cover more bases helpful in practice?

Thanks.

[Liokault]

This is a stupid question and if your not past the stage of beliving its about catching punches then locking them you need to think more about what your doing!

[Crimson Phoenix]

The body's joints and tendons do not have an infinite range of motions. Hence, there is a limited number of ways to bind, lock and tear.
When people leanr many qinna techniques, they often get caught in the individual technique, trying to learn like a catalog of stuff they would then try to browse and to chose from when in need. But the catalog approach in qinna IMHO doesn't work. What I try to do though, through the study of many qinnas, is get a feeling of how a joint locks or a tendon binds and tears. In other words, forget about the technique of the qinna itself and focus on the principle behind. As I said, there is only a limited number of ways to perform a qinna. Once you have a feeling of the angles that hurt and immobilize, you can forget about the individual techniques and it gives you much better chances to place a qinna: indeed, it doesn't matter how the opponent does his thing, you know the angles and positions, you devise your qinna on the spot to make it work, instead of trying to place a single schoolbook technique.
I don't know if that makes much sense or replies to your question...

Anyway, one last thing, to NEVER forget, coming from a reknowned expert of qinna: it's ALWAYS EASIER to strike than to do a qinna. Hence, the latter should be used only when you are very much superior to your opponent and consecutively when you can afford to be merciful, without risking too much of yourself.

[Muppet]

Actually, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Generalizing and discarding form-particulars is also true for striking, but I can definitely see why that's critical in chin na.

However, given that I only have so much time to practice--especially with a partner--I think you've answered my question.

I'll concentrate on getting good with the striking for now and work on the chin na applications if and when I have time in the future.

Thanks.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Chin Na is at least as useful as punching and kicking.. in the streets you seldom get the luxury of a referee to break the clinches.. Chin Na has concluded more of my street encounters than punching and kicking.. After more than 30 years in this goofy martial arts world, it is one of my prime weapons.. (besides, i love whispering "it gets so much worse than this, wanna quit now")..

Be well...

[I.M. Toast]

it is a reasonable enough one for a beginner (like myself).
I can imagine chin-na to be very useful, in a given situation. A previous poster on the forum said that his teacher, recommended "strike first, and then chin-na". If you have set yourself up into a position, or been placed in a position to use it, it is a very effective weapon.

I.M.T.

[Stacey]

you use hand techniques to set up for them.

You make contact and follow.

[fa_jing]

I think the key point is that you block (redirect) the punch first making contact with the opponent's arm and grab from there, or grab after you have trapped, or grab a stationary hand, or grab a hand that has grabbed you first. You do not grab a punch directly out of thin air. Also from the clinch, your shaui (throw) is more important than a sieze (Qin)

[Walter Joyce]

Good posts, quick reminder from another thread.
Quin-na is a "gift from heaven" as in you use it when the opportunity arises.
Oddly enough, considering the damage one can inflict with it, it also can be merciful. Controlling techiniques give the ability to inflict degrees of damage much easier than striking or kicking.

[Former castleva]

Some points to consider with chin-na:
-In many cases,first strike,then wrap.To avoid arm wrestling.
-If against a strike etc. it may be better to deflect first than try to directly catch a strike.
-Rely on technique,not strength.
-Place pressure on what is weak,with what is relatively strong.
-When locking joints,LOCK joints to make it immovable,therefore easier to direct and harder to resist.
-Chin-na is more than jointlocking.
-A good joint pressure technique does not just put opponent to a disadvantageous position,it is cabable of keeping you safe.
-Just twisting something to a certain direction is not wise,even though it may cause pain,does not control.This will get you punched over and over again while you concentrate on a small area neglecting opponent´s weapons.
-Control the whole opponent by controlling only one part of him,or alternatively,temporarily take opponent away to lead up with a finishing blow etc.

[Walter Joyce]

Once again, good points. For those interested, visit this thread on the topic:

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/y...num=1034197116

[Former castleva]

Yeah,good discussion you brought up Walter.

I just wanted to add this view that I´ve seen various times,which goes like chin-na/jointlocks etc. are prime bull and don´t work in a real fight.

What do you think?

[Walter Joyce]

I think that quinna works in real fights, but only if you have spent a fair amount of timne working on it and have develped good skill.

What has my current interest is the use of fa jin and quinna. I had some demostrated on me this summer and it was an eyeopener.

[TaoBoxer]

Physical Therapy

bill

[GeneChing]

..and I should add that I'm not very good at it and that I do volunteer work in intense psychedelic reaction crisis intervention, which means I have to take down intoxicated and belligerent patients on occasion.

I think the factor of chin na that most people overlook is the bridge. Now I've never successfully caught a punch in the field like I can in class practice. It's never that neat and clean. Usually what happens is the punch comes and I deflect it to the best of my ability (which often means I'll eat the strike a little, but not enough to put me down.) Then I close the gap so the patient can't really punch. For there, I scramble to get hold of an arm, and once I seize it, I can apply some chin na. FWIW, I'm usually (but not always) accompanied by team mates. I have secured takedowns by chin na alone, but it's an ugly messy thing, more like wrestling. Still it does work, often quite well.