Origin Of Hung Gar Forms/Sets?

[Subitai]

Hi Blade and others,

Interesting info goin' around. "salute"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blade:
Thanks Paul

How about the other forms such as Mui Fa Kuen
Is it true that the Mui Fa was originally a northern siu lam form, if so who introduced this set into Hung Gar.

Subs= Blade, you might want to ask Sifu John Leongs people. Since he has a book out on the form.
What i have heard about it's origins is very similar to "Sam Yin Kuen" ( A 3 animal fist set that is relatively new to HG, ie < 100yrs old) Sifu Bucksam Kong does this set. Anyway the thought is that some time ago, HG teachers thought that the system needed more sets and so added these other sets.

I was about to say the same thing as Kung Lek. He was dead on when he wrote about the plum blossom theory. It is a dominant idea in CMA. It is everywhere you look and not just in the directions of the sets. Of course you problably know all this stuff but it is also in weapon movements and in the very attks themselves. For example in our school, when we practice spear we adhere these basic movements:

Spear traits and movements.

Sin - Thread - this is the character of the spear. To move as straight as a thread.

Chat - Wrapping

Ngat - Pressing - in a half-circle.

Boot - Push to outside - This is the low block in the basic move.

Tun & Bung - Lifting - Tun is longer and Bung is snappy.

NOTE * If a weapon set does not have a lot of the moves which emphasizes the character of the weapon, it misses the point. (ie. Straight sword sets shouldn’t have more slashing then jabbing. Focus is on the pt. It can have some but the predominant movement should be the strength of the weapon.)

As far as Moi fa. When we press, a variation of the movement can be that we do it in such a way that the bounce and focus on the tip resembles a Plum blossom. And so even if someone blocks it, the person on the receiving end may get a few more attks. This also depends on the quality of the spear as it should be alittle stiffer like a long pole, for this technique.

Snip,
Also What do u think the original wepons of Hung Gar was? [/quote]

subs= I was always taught that HG originally had Long pole, butterfly swords and tiger fork only. Broadsword, st. sword (gim) and Spear for ex, are Northern adaptations.

Sifu Lam had learned the HG Broadsword set as well. But he noticed that it was lacking in comparison to the Sil Lum set. The HG set had probably been adapted from the Shaolin set anyway. Same thing for the other HG weapons, all added later in the lineage as time went on.

Oh oh, my baby is crying. I've enjoyed reading this thread w/ you guys.

take care all,
Subs aka "O"

PS, if i get a chance mabe my brother and I could post about the Ha Say Fu.

[blade]

Hey guys!!

Nice to see so many replies. Keep it up. Paul, is your sifu a student of Chan Hon Chung? I trained with the top student of Chan hon chung in Hong Kong for a short while. Also know some of other students of Chan Hon Chung.
Anyway, to my knowledge, the Gim, straight sword is said to be invented by Chih Yu. This sowrd is refferd as the mother of all short weapons and has 3 cutting edges. This sword was popular and associated with some of the great leaders and warriors of chinese history. And if i am not wrong there are traditionally 16 different ways of using the gim. The movments of gim are generaly softer than the other swords such as broadsword. Gim requires agility, flexibilty and balance.

The long tassel is used for confusing and distracting the opponnent. The long tassel is used in mant ways such as hitting the opponent using the tassel, wrapping it round opponents wrist etc..
About sticking magnetically to your opponent's sword? Well i am not too sure what exactlly u are asking here. The main principle behind sticking is feeling. Feeling the opponnents force and his energy, his movments as well as your own is the key to sticking to an opponent.
About the shapes of the forms and other questions i will keep you posted as I have to go now.

Thanks everybody

Blade

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Hi Blade, I'd love to talk to you in email, would you please contact me?

Yes, my sifu had the bulk of his training from Chan Hon Chung during the 1950's and 1960's.

Who are considered to be the top students of Chan Hon Chung?

I've heard that the tassel is also used for attacking the eyes. I've heard that the magnetic sticking is the super advanced stage of the art, whereas the average "sticking" is more well known. The magnetism is created by sending your chi to the end of the sword, and polarizing the metal. I'd really love to meet a master swordsman, to see what the real gim is all about.

[blade]

Hello

Hey paul, send u an email hope u got it.

Anyway, u r right about the tassel, it can also be used for attacking the eyes. The tassel can be very effective if used right, however i dont think there are many people out there who knows how to use it or dont pay much attention to it. Going back to magnetic sticking, to many people what u r talking about is very far fetched and magical. I think in a way what u r talking about can be achived (maybe not exactlly the way u have put it) but requires many years of hard work and dedication. Again i dont think there are many people(if any)now who can do this. Saying that i have heard of people in old times who had similar skills.

Another intresting point about gim, if anyone didnt know is that, it is said that the gim had a strong influence over the creation of the famous japanese Katana. The gim is also not one of the original weapons of hung gar. I am sure u all knew that.

What u all think about the lau gar sets in hung gar. its origins and philosopy behind it etc..How about Jin Sao Kuen(arrow hand)? And has anyone started learning the tid sin? What u think?

Have nice day

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Jin Sao Kuen.....wasn't it created by Chiu Kao as a beginners set?

I don't know for sure, because I never practiced it.

Lau gar seems more technical, with pheonix eye (or crane head) fists.

[bean curd]

jin sau kuen is regarded as a learners set, and is designed for this, and is not regarded as a form like lau gar kuen.

some lineages do use the set as an intermediate, basically a refresher, however generally used as one of the first sets learnt, before going onto forms.

works on the basics, foundation, weight transition, waist, seven star usage, hand/body co-oridination, etc

regards

[hasayfu]

You guys are awesome. This has been a great thread. Here are my additions from my meager knowledge base.

Sup Ying: Does anyone know if Sup Ying was created before Fu Hok? I agree that Sup Ying is a bridge to Tit Sin but it makes one wonders why Lam Sai Wing chose to document Gung Gi Fook Fu, Fu Hok and Tit Sin only. I always considered these the main sets.

Wu Dip Jueng: The story I heard was it was from Chiu Kao's wife. Paul, does your lineage practice this set? Chiu's line is the only one I know that does it.

What is Lau Gar Pang?

Mui Fa Kuen: This set is thaught by Chiu's line. John Leong wrote a book and he is from Lum Jo's branch. I've never seen the set but am told it's a beginner level. Just confirming what my Si-Hing subatai wrote. When we visit Chiu Wai later this month, we'll ask him.

Also, Mui Fa is a 5 petal leaf. The leaf on
the Hong Kong flag. As Paul stated there are sets called Sup Ji (Character 10) for cross patterns and Gung Ji (character "I") for I patterns. Mui Fa Kuens are 5 directions. (left, right, straight and the 2 corners between them) As mantis stated, it is also full of symbolism.

Kwun Lun: Subatai said what we were taught about it. The persian influence is interesting. The set definitely uses more slashes then most Gim sets.

Jin Sao Kuen: Is this arrow hand? if so, this is not a Chiu Kao invention (though he may be the only one to teach it). Arrowhand is a Wing Lam name. The original set is called heart penetrating palm. Wing Lam took the beginning and uses it to teach basics. The complete set is like a combination of gung ji and the end of sup ying. Someone outside of Hung Gar line said it's an old set of Southern lineage. Sifu didn't think it was that important.

Fu Hok: Great info Mantis. Not many know that stuff. That's a whole thread on it's own.

Butterfly knives: This and the pole are considered the classical hung gar weapons. (along with the tiger fork but that was more military) Paul, you have good info because very few people call the set by it's correct name, Ji Mo Dao. This is the set most often seen in Canton Hung Gar. I know that Chiu line has a set that they call Wu Dip Dao which is different then Ji Mo Do but I don't know what it looks like. Paul, are all the other BF sets you listed Hung Gar or are they borrowed from other systems? Ha Say Fu has a different set as well.

[mantis108]

Hi Everyone,

I haven't forgotten about this thread. There are something about Fu Hok that I'm working on. I hope to work on it a little bit more before I post my findings. So please be patient.

I also wonder why Lam Sai Wing choose those 3 sets. I speculate that at the time photography isn't widely available or rather expansive to use or he doesn't like being photographed (old Chinese superstition). For documention he will have to post for a loooong time just to do one book. If I were Lam, I would have chosen my forms carefully. Forms that would represent the style or his Kung Fu really well. My impression is that Kung Ji represents the fundamentals of Hung Gar (the solid conditioning)"Gong", Fu Hok articulates the hard/soft concept and serve as (the fluid transition) from external to internal "Yau", and TiK Sin finally refine and hone the mind and the body into hard as iron/soft as wire which is the internal stage "Gong Yau sheung chai". The sound and breathing techniques, to me,is the most remarkable. This is of course my impression only. I think whoever created these sets really put a lot of thought into them. Thoroughly study one set is quite an undertaking. Learning all three in that sequence seems to have some kind of a design to it. Just a hunch. Anyway, hope you enjoy this so far...

Peace to all

Mantis108

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[Paul Skrypichayko]

When you think about hung gar, the real "essence" of the style is in the three forms, Gung Ji, Fu Hok, and Tit Sin. When Lam Sai Wing published his books, they were the first books on kung fu that were intended for the public. This was pretty revolutionary in the old days.

Wu Deep Jeung is also practiced by a few other lineages under Lam Sai Wing. By talking to a few different practicioners, I have discovered that Chan Hon Chung's and Chiu Wei's version are very similar, but Chiu Chi Ling's version is very different from both. The Chiu Wei and Chan Hon Chung versions do not seem very "northern". I suspect it is either good marketing, or misinformation by some people out there.

Lau Gar Pang is the Lau Gar pole form. Pang/bang is the proper term for that type of weapon. Keep in mind it is tapered, not like the double headed staff, kwun/gun.

I have no idea where Mui Fa Kuen came from. I do know that it was originally a "ladies style", and that they practiced with the "siu bo" (mouse step), instead of false leg stance and horse stance. The reason why women practice different is to be more "lady-like" and to protect the vaginal membrane. Almost every mui fa form I have seen or heard about has been 4 directional. Until somebody corrects me, it seems safe to believe that an actual plum blossom can be either 4 or 5 petalled.

The tiger fork is not a military weapon, it is more for hunters, and the "stupid, country bumpkin type". I still like the weapon, even though it is pretty basic.

The butterfly knives are "hung gar", but saying that does not mean much. Hung gar used to be called just plain old southern shaolin. Hung gar has evolved so much over the years. Butterfly knives can only be moved and used a certain number of ways. The forms I have seen are all pretty similar, just different routines, but the general idea remains the same.

Dear all Hung Gar practioners

I am not a Hung Gar practioners myself, but a lot of my friends studies it, just a few interesting history that they told me. Wong Fei Hung actually learnt Tit Sin Keun with Lum Fook San,(Student of Lau Crun "Tit Kui Sarm"). Any comments on this issue?
As they call the style that practice by Tit Kui Sarm and Lum Fook San the "LO Hung Keun" means the Old Hung Keun. Just wonder are there any students from that lineage?

regards

Wilson


http://www.southernmantis.co.uk

[Paul Skrypichayko]

Leung Kwan (Tit Kiu Sam) taught Lam Fook Shing, and Lam Fook Shing did some teaching to Wong Fei Hung.

Some people from the Tit Kiu Sam lineage are the students and grandstudents of Lai Ng Sam.

One of them, Evert van der Meulen, has a website from the Netherlands: http://home.worldonline.nl/~hgkweito/

[blade]

Hello Everyone!!

I am sure as you all know the original Hand forms of Hung Gar are; Gung Gee, Fu Hok and Tid Sin.

Gung Gee is the first form of Hung Gar which was originated from the famous Siu Lum Temple. This is one of the most important forms of hung gar and traditionaly its the first form tought. Gung Gee is the core set which teaches the basics and more advanced concepts of Hung Gar such as 5 animals and 5 elements, correct breathing etc..as wel as many other important things.

There are many different stories about how fu hok was originated. However its a well known fact that this form was modified by Wong Fei Hong. It is said that the fu hok practiced know is diffrent from the original fu hok.

Sup Ying Was not created before Fu Hok. This form was created/developed after Fu Hok for various reasons.

I am sure you all know how and who by the famous tid sin kuen was created.

As for why Lam Sai Wing chose to publish books on Gung Gee, Fu Hok and tid sin but not the other forms is that is Beacuse these forms are the original and core forms of hung gar and also the most famous forms in the style.

I have seen many photos of Lam Sai Wing at Lam Jo Sigungs studio in Hng Kong, so i dont think he had anything against being photographed.
Anyway got to go now. Keep posting what u think or what u want to know etc..

Take care!!

Paul

Thanks for the web link, it is a very informative site. Excellent!

regards

Wilson


http://www.southernmantis.co.uk

[bean curd]

this thread keeps getting better all the time.

must say find it interesting that wu dip chueng may not be from northern style, as been stated????

since both chiu kau and his wife siu ying have stated that it is a northern form, i have always believed this.

in regards to yu gar dai pa, my knowledge has been that it is a senior and heavy weapon.

the intrices of the usage and applictions alone and not including the weight of the weapon, make it a challanging weapon not only physically but also mentally.

i find the wracking, digging, twisting, turning, catching, green dragon shows its tail, poking, pressing etc with the ma (stances) required to be extremly demanding yet a sense of achievment when having completed the form

if i can ask how do others find the yu gar dai pa (yu family great fork) and for that matter what about the kwan dao, i know this weapon has some different names but it can be confussing for those outside hung gar to realise that it is the same weapon, so i thought i would keep it to the generic term,(for a better word)

regards

[mantis108]

Hi Everyone,

Paul, the site you give is really infomative, thanks and keep up the good work.

A word on Kwan Do. It belongs to the same weapon catagroy know as Dai Do (large and long Sadre). They were heavy battle field weapons used on horseback. Now, it's more on foot. It is believe that it can be used to train strength. Kwan Do takes it name after General Kwan who was/is regarded as the God of martial affairs. He was a Gerenal in the three Kingdom period well known for his courage and loyalty to his sworn brethern. The weapon he used was call "ching Lung Yin Yuei Do" (Green Dragon Plays the Moon). It has a specific shape and weight (quite heavy since he had great strength). There is other version of the Dai do which take on other celebertie's name "Choi Yeung" for example. Regardless of style, in a Kwan Do set, movements of brushing the bear, riding the horse and sharpening the blade will be played to honor General Kwan. Dai Do set will not have these signature movements.

Peace to all

Mantis108

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