The myth of todays kung fu fighting exposed

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

At issue here is why do people pursue those that talk crap? Time and time again arrogant self-righteous macho types assault Internal styles, issue challenges and so-forth.. Get over it, they feed on the emotion driven responses of others.

Is there a single supreme Art?.. NO.. There is only the individual that assimilates as much valid technique and experience as he or she can. After more than 30 years in the MA world, it is my experience that Internal Martial Arts are valid at most levels, but.. they begin to struggle around the top 10% of those well trained in a variety of arts, especially grappling arts... That being said, the competitor that adds Internals to his or her training can only improve the overall effectivness.. My own training had reached a plateau around age 40, then i was introduced to CIMA and it was like stepping out of the dark into the light.. the additional power alone enhanced my performance by at least 50% and the ability to absorb energy rather than to struggle against it really added a new dimension to full-on sparring..

From my own experience, the external training of 20 years finally matured when supplemented with internal training.. i began to recognize the real potential of MA.. Yin/Yang, Hard/soft, internal/external, complimenting opposites that form the whole.. I do not dis-believe the stories and accounts of great internal masters, at the same time i don't suppose that they had a Gracie or Shamrock challenging them.. MA is evolving, and clinging to any single style only limits your options.. but, to get the best of the styles chosen requires a very dedicated training schedule.. a schedule that few have the time for..

There are a few that come in here and insult styles and masters because they differ philosophically.. Some practicioners seek only to be adequately prepared for the unlikely event they are confronted with a hostile situation, they live their lives in such a manner as to not invite trouble.. they are not agressive, they are not insulting, they are respectful and benevolent.. Too often internalists are ridiculed because they don't train for world-class MMA/NHB competitions.. so be it, they train to avoid those situations, to neutralize before it becomes a problem.. If Frank Shamrock threatens me on the street i will start writing checks until i neutralize the situation ....

In closing, i still find it odd, that people come to forums with the intent of generating ill-will and confrontational scenarios.. Ultimately, i feel that Martial Arts are about self-mastery and living a peaceful life (peaceful in knowing that one is prepared)..

Be well.. (and, don't take the troll bait)..

[Walter Joyce]

Good post, Bob. I have a friend from china who studies with a cheng ba gua master. This master has practiced ba gua for over 50 years, and still does in his 80s. When my friend asked his master if the masters son would ever master ba gau like his father, the master said no, he thinks too much about fighting.

Fighting is like breathing for martial artists. Both are essential, but like breathing, at a certain point you stop thinking about it and just do it. And like breathing, it is both essential, yet not a big deal.

Does this mean I can fight and win against anyone?

No.

Perhaps the important part of fighting is being willing to fight for what is important, and being willing not to fight if fighting is not the right response.

But then again, I could be wrong.

[Spirit Writer]

I elect TaijiBob as poster of the month for offering valid opinions in a non-offensive manner.

Bob, you continue to show all sides of martial arts in a positive, realistic light without once bringing your own skill or level into the conversation.

Cheers!

[Muppet]

BT & Maoshan, I don't get it.

You guys make the points and I think many people are in agreement that:
1). The IMAs--especially taiji and bagua--is slowly dying as effective fighting arts.

2). The IMAs are viewed as a joke by many circles, especially outside the Chinese community, since so few IMA practitioners spar and can really fight.

3). Genuine instructors willing to teach are far and few between, but fakers are a plenty and unfortunately, well-spoken.

I don't know you guys personally, but you guys seem to have a mission to revive bagua (and indirectly, taiji and hsing i) by calling fakers' bluffs and, assuming you have the goods, showing that the IMA works when push comes to shove.

So far, so good.

But how does it help to revive genuine IMA by not leading earnest people to genuine instructors?

Is wasting years searching and unlearning bs a required badge of dedication?

Learning the IMA is an arduos task, even with the right teacher and instructions, and there are earnest people who end up wasting years learning total crap.

These people are setting themselves to get hurt--look at all the taiji "players" with knee problems--and the ones who think they are learning to defend themselves are up the creek.

They also unwittingly add to the already large numbers of IMA fakers, making the search even harder.

If you guys have some other reasons (e.g., don't want lead 100s of challengers to good instructors who have better things to do), fine.

But if you guys are saying everyone has to wade through BS for years to prove themselves, then what's the point?

[blacktaoist]

Spirit Writer

You are full of $hit. Don't try to come at me with that Morality of deed bull$hit. Because like I told you I don't give a **** what any of you think about me.

Like I told you I know who the hell you are. How do I know, because one of your classmates told me who the hell you are. Now I'm not going to play games with your ass, If you like I come down to your school and have your classmate be there to prove my claims. You are full of $hit like most of these punks up here hiding.

So kill your righteous man act you are trying to play. You are a punk and the day I meet your ass I could see that $hit. That's why your ass didn't enter the BaGua fighting competition, because you knew all that bull$hit you post is just that Bull****.

I have more respect for these KFO posters like, Count, Andy and Lincon then your hiding ass. No matter what the skill level they came from a far, to test what they learned from their teacher, and they did alright too.

Like I told you don't try to play me for a fool. I don't even know why your sifu deals with your ass.

The fact that you invite someone to play and suggest they bring a first aid kit says it all. Who wants to play with you then?

I don't play little Tai Chi games, It I spar with someone its full-contact. Thats the problem with so-called internal practitioners today, they don't train proper methods. You like to play your little rehearse combat games and think thats real skill training. Like I said, I don't care what you people do, But in my eyes the internal is for training combat, that's how I learned the style, that's how I'm going to keep practicing the methods to the day I die.

Just because no one wants to go to Brooklyn on their day off (imagine that) means the martial world is afraid of you? Who do you think you are, BlackToaist Mei defeating the Shoalin warrior monks?

I can see you just like making $hit up, for one I don't live in Brooklyn.(but you know that already) Show me one post, that I posted on KFO, where I say I'm the best fighter in the world, or I claim to be the best internal fighter out here. Not one person can show me a post like that, because I would never post no bull$hit like that.

But I can show you alot of bull$hit post that I read up here, from individuals like yourself hiding behind fake names, or posting as other individual like you are doing now.

many of you talk of marality of deed, well tell me something, is lying and hiding like a coward behind fake names, posting like another individual part of the martial way.

The bottom line is I know who you are, and your FULL OF $HIT.

circle walker:

Black Taoist and Maoshan, I think that there is a point to people wanting to know who you beleive, or have learned to be full of b.s. You have placed yourself in some ways to be in positions of authority. When people try to do background checks on a potential teacher this is what they're going to read. Just give your honest opinion.

I gave my honest opinion a few times about So-called named brand internal masters , that I know can't apply $hit in a real situation. I feel what's the point of me giving more names, its not going to change anything. You still are going to have these fools still follow them,(and no, I don't mean come follow me.) I'm still going to get attack for my veiwponts and opinions about the so-called internal arts.

Now many up here talk about the Health, and that internal is not just for fighting. True in deed, but many of today so-called internal teachers and practitioners are not even in good health or are they condition. Most of today internal practitioners love to talk about Chi Kung training and many of them can't even hold a posture for more then 5 mins. Most of them postures are bad looking and their fat as hell, and they want to discuss fa-jing and health. Get real.

As for my attitude, I live my life how I feel, not for others. I can careless what people think of me, or how they feel about me and my actions. I 'm not looking for new students, or do I claim to be a righteous man , chinese scholar nut, or health practitioner. Bottom line is, I don't give a fly ****. If you good, you good, I don't care what the skill level or the age, if you up here talking $hit you should be a man and back your $hit up. After all mny up here post like they have some kind of push hands skills or Chi skill , whatever that may be, I like to see it in real action. Is that to much to ask.

I only respect these individuals that are not cowards, this hiding behind fake names show just how little girls someone of these individuals are up here. maybe thats why they train internal its a myth art, so what the hell, I made a myth name and talk mad $hit to people. I show these fools my internal skills easy, hiding behind the P.S, is one way to show I have a understanding of the internal...........

This has be fun.
BT

[BSH]

BT:

Are you a Taoist as your name references? I have recently started adjusting my views towards the Tao and how I can better follow it.

Is your goal to become Tao in your actions and your writings?

[Empty Fist]

Originally posted by SevenStar


nothing unrealistic about wearing only shorts - he could be on a beach or at the pool, or even taking out his garbage and get assaulted. all of those things can be done while wearing only shorts. Someone could break into his house, and he may be in shorts. It's not that unrealistic. not having clothes is not a severe disadvantage for the opponent - in shuai chiao, you grab muscles, not necessarily the clothes. with proper trainin, he was at no disadvantage at all.

"if the Karate guy landed a hit on the BJJ dude’s a vital point you may have seen a different outcome."

Did he really have time? he was instantly taken down.

"I studied Judo and JuiJitsu for 3 years and I’ll tell you this, the art does not teach you how to defend yourself adequately against strikes. Bull rushing an opponent can be effective but it also can lead you to be vulnerable."

little secret.....most bjj guys now cross train in a standup grappling style and a striking style. it's not uncommon for the bjj guy to also train in wrestling, judo, etc. boxing, muay thai, etc. many of the bjj guys in brazil also have at least a shodan in judo.

nothing unrealistic about wearing only shorts - he could be on a beach or at the pool, or even taking out his garbage and get assaulted. all of those things can be done while wearing only shorts. Someone could break into his house, and he may be in shorts. It's not that unrealistic. not having clothes is not a severe disadvantage for the opponent - in shuai chiao, you grab muscles, not necessarily the clothes. with proper trainin, he was at no disadvantage at all.

I disagree. Bottom line it is easier to grab clothes vs grabbing skin. That’s why the BBJ guy was only wearing shorts. Why didn’t he wear a gi? Because he wanted to be at an advantage. Kudos for him thinking.

"if the Karate guy landed a hit on the BJJ dude’s a vital point you may have seen a different outcome."

Did he really have time? he was instantly taken down.

Take out the eyes.

"I studied Judo and JuiJitsu for 3 years and I’ll tell you this, the art does not teach you how to defend yourself adequately against strikes. Bull rushing an opponent can be effective but it also can lead you to be vulnerable."

little secret.....most bjj guys now cross train in a standup grappling style and a striking style. it's not uncommon for the bjj guy to also train in wrestling, judo, etc. boxing, muay thai, etc. many of the bjj guys in brazil also have at least a shodan in judo.

You mention cross training. Any fighter that cross trains in other martial arts will be a better fighter. That’s why Bruce Lee invented Jeet Kune Do. His art was constantly evolving taking the best of and martial arts and wrapping into one form. The lesson from Bruce, always keep an open mind to learning. Bottom line…any martial artist is at a great disadvantage if they don’t know ground techniques.

[blacktaoist]

For one I'm of African Descent, So no, I not a Chinese Taoist, or do I claim to be one. I am a black man that practice a Chinese martial art. So I put the word BLACK, for this word puts my african culture first, the word taoists is to show my respect for the Chinese Culture. For it is their fighting methods That I'm practicing.


[QUOTE]Is your goal to become Tao in your actions and your writings?[/QUOTE/]

I don't seek anything but what is. I live my life for the NOW.

The Tao is an empty vessel, it is used, but never filled. Hidden deep but ever present.

Peace
BT

[Ray Pina]

You've been addressing a good friend of mine this entire thread. He has just recovered from a terminal illness from which he lost a lot of weight and could barely carry himself around. Thank God he has recovered and is now working on regaining his motor skills -- he caught his first wave since getting better two months ago.

My training brother you refer to knows who this is, because they trained at the same Ba Gua class. Just ask. I have nothing to hide or fear.

As for me, I was the one who was at your tournament and introduced myself. I did not fight because I am not Ba Gua, I am me, and me is studying Hsing-I, and just now delving into my master's own system.

I have been avoiding this forum because there is too much mouth boxing going on -- I'd rather train. I've made one or two POSITIVE posts regarding Hsing-I because the topics were not controversial.

As the post above states, I actually agree with all your "beefs" about martial arts. But, unlike yourself I find no need to push others down to raise myself. You are you, and I am me. No judgement there.

Like I said. I am training, and we will cross hands before your next tournament -- I give you my word on that again. Be patient.

I've been doing a little fighting, but the past two years have been one of adding and refinning. I am not gun shy, that is not an area that needs improvement. My technique does, so that has been and remains my focus.

Until then

Raymond Pina JR
Long Beach NY
Birth day: 5/2/74
weight: 195 lbs
favorite color: black
Favorite band: The Grateful Dead, U2, Bob Marley, The Doors
Favorite animal: Bear
Favorite fish: Great White Shark
Notion that I have something to hide: silly ....
Notion I have something to fear: See above

[Phantom Menace]

BT and Moashan

How long have you been practicing your respective arts?

I understand and agree with the majority of what you're saying, but I don't think you ever fought any quality BJJ or submission grappling or vale tudo fighter. All your challenges seem to be directed to the internal martial artist.

How about fighting a bjj, submission grappler, or vale tudo fighter with the same amount of training years. How about it? I think what happened to the mcdojo guys that you make fun of will happen to you. Somebody will tape it and post it on the mcdojo site for everyone to see.

You claim you've fought all these "people". Who are these mystery victims of the blacktaoist fighting prowess? Do you have tapes of these fights?

[blacktaoist]

You've been addressing a good friend of mine this entire thread. He has just recovered from a terminal illness from which he lost a lot of weight and could barely carry himself around. Thank God he has recovered and is now working on regaining his motor skills -- he caught his first wave since getting better two months ago.

I know who I been addressing From day one. So kill the bull$hit. You are going around post as two individuals. And I don't need to ask your classmate $hit, when he already told me of his own fee will that you was post up here under Spirit Writer. Now out of no where the great EvolutionFist shows up, when in fact spiritwriter and Evolutionfist are the same. Your punk ass. Bottom line your ful of $hit.

As the post above states, I actually agree with all your "beefs" about martial arts. But, unlike yourself I find no need to push others down to raise myself. You are you, and I am me. No judgement there.

I don't put anyone down, so what the hell are you talking about. My statements are mosting dealing with combat, and if the person viewpoints are Bull$hit dealing with fighting then I will givemy criticism and makemy points, just have many up here have done with me. So kill the Bull$hit. If I wanted to raise myself I get a woman for that job. As for Judement, I'm no God, to jude any man, But I be more then willing to test your ass Why don't you ask your........You just don't know. I use to put many So-called Chinese internal teachers on their candy ass in China town area. Why.? Because I'm not looking to learn any bull$hit. And I would test your ass to the best of my skill level, Its not about being the best, its about seeking truth. But yet, you fools still don't understand that!!

Like I said. I am training, and we will cross hands before your next tournament -- I give you my word on that again. Be patient.

When you first post up here on KFO you claim you had all these years in mantis boxing and fighting, The first beef I had with you is, because you was making all these claims of martial skills, so when it came time to test you out on these claims, you was nowhere to be find at your sifu school. Man you are all talk. I don't care if you practice for ten years, you never catch up to me.(I'm always training) I have people that I train for less then a year, that I know can handle your ass easy, and I'm willing to come down to your sifu school with them to prove it.

But no matter , you may be fooling everybody on KFO with your humility and good will act. But your not fooling me at all, and whn I have time, I'm coming to your sifu school to see your ass on the bull$hit game you are trying to play. Because like I said you can't tell me $hit, because your classmate didn't have to tell me anything. so I see no reason for him to lie.

But we see who is telling the truth when I get down there.

See you soon spiritwriter/ Evolutionfist/both+ only one person =Raymond Pina JR.

People just can't be themself.

[blacktaoist]

Phantom Menace

I'm not hiding and I'm easy to find, I don't care what style a person do, just show up. a bjj, submission grappler, or vale tudo fighter whatever just show up. I will compare skills with anyone and I have train with and fought them kind of martial artist and never had a problem with them.

Also I never made fun of anybody so, why are you making $hit up. Show a post by me were I had made fun of these mcdojo guys, If and thing I respect what they do.(FIGHT) Are you up here trying to start some $hit also?

I have no problem with anyone up here, But I also willing to compare skills with people , no matter the style.

Like I said all you have to do is pay me a visit, and I will not be just walking circle when we compare skills or will it be easy to take me to the ground. But this is all just talk, Why don't you come and find out.

[blacktaoist]

Phantom Menace


Do you think that was a quality Kung Fu Figher that fought. I think not. I know street fighters in my community that could have did a hell of a better job.

What is Quality to you? To me fighting is fighting, all that style bull$hit gos out the window when fighting. what matters if your combat method is practical and you can adapt to the situation.

So your Thinking of me easy getting beat by one of them BJJ guys is wrong. I never end up on the ground easy like that poor Kung Fu guy did in that movie clip. Because I would have adapt to the situation with the right offensive and defensive techniues. And one rule in the internal is keep both feet on the ground with in a combat. Trying to take a man out in my first open move,with a high forward front kick in a real fight is not my style.

[Ray Pina]

This is growing quite tiring, so I'll make this quick.

1) I was "no where to be found" because I told you I train on Tues. and Fri. night. You visited my teacher on an afternoon that was neither a Tues. or Fri.

2) If I see David twice a month it is a lot. He trains Ba Gua, I train something else. Believe who/what you will.

3) I have studied S. Mantis and it was an important stop for me. It was the first training I undergone that involved ONLY fighting -- every class headgear and gloves, that's it. It taught me how to judge techniques realistically. Taught me a lot about momentum and use of weight.

4) I have found my martial truth. I have tons to learn, but I am not looking any longer. I have found what I have been looking for. Do not agree, that is fine, but as a martial artist understand what that means to me.

5) Lastly, understanding the significance of (4), know that I do not want to involve my training brothers (who I respect and care for) or the school. My master, as you know, has long taken care of business on his own.

I am not a disciple and need a bit more time; I see no weakness in stating such. When I am ready, I'll contact you through David. I suspect it should be sometime in the Spring.

Be well. Train hard.
Ray Pina

[Phantom Menace]

BT,

You will get taken down. You will be submitted. You will flop around, get armbarred or choked out like everyone else that has fought with BJJ, submission grappler or a vale tudo guy. You will go down.

I don't want to judge those guys getting beat in the mcdojo site. They didn't do well, that's it. I respect them for even fighting. You're fight with a high level grappler will look the same.

It doesn't matter what your style is or what plans you have you will get taken down and eventually submitted, knocked out or broken. It's one thing to challenge other internal martial artist who don't fight or spar much. It's another thing to challenge and fight martial artist known for fighting.

I agree with most of what you say about IMA, but you sound more like you're just bullying other internal martial artist.