The myth of todays kung fu fighting exposed

[blacktaoist]

I am not a disciple and need a bit more time; I see no weakness in stating such. When I am ready, I'll contact you through David. I suspect it should be sometime in the Spring.

I don't need to hear your bull$hit. I was at the BaGua tournament, you was face to face with me, all you had to do is step to me. But you knew what time it was. (your not that dumb) Whenever you ready Bring it, Because it be a cold day in hell, before you beat my ass. I don't care what you think your learning. Like I said before I have students that can easy handle your ass with less years then yourself.

1) I was "no where to be found" because I told you I train on Tues. and Fri. night. You visited my teacher on an afternoon that was neither a Tues. or Fri.

You knew I was coming thats why your ass was not there. You even had your sifu call my home. Man don't let me have to tell the whole story how $hit went down at your school on KFO. Like I said you are all talk and playing internet games. I 'm willing to back my $hit up that day. But I can't say the same for your ass.

5) Lastly, understanding the significance of (4), know that I do not want to involve my training brothers (who I respect and care for) or the school. My master, as you know, has long taken care of business on his own.

This have nothing to do with your training brothers, only you and one of your classmates. And I will becoming down to your sifu school to get to the bottom of this. Because I see no reason why your classmate would lie on you about posting up on KFO as two people.

By the way, I never said who the classmate that told me you was posting as two people was, But you just did:

2) If I see David twice a month it is a lot. He trains Ba Gua, I train something else. Believe who/what you will.

You are just full of BUll$hit and a lier.


The end of Your quote post replys should be:
Be yourself and post as yourself.
See you soon , I don't have time for the games.

[blacktaoist]

Phantom Menace I have no beef with you, Think what you want. its your right, you don't see me getting upset about it. If you ever fight with a well train internal martial artist, a grappler will be be put out for the count. Try fighting a internal practitioner who have develop their root and know how to hit with whole body power and can feel your every movemovent when in contact with you. And I'm not talking about Chi, I'm talking about real Kung Fu skill. That guy on the tape had nothing.( NO KUNG FU WHAT SO EVER)Truth is truth.

As for me bullying other internal martial artists are you for real man. This is a talk forum, I only discuss my veiwpoints about combat, nothing more, nothing less. I can't help it if my internal martial art brothers get upset at my veiws.

I tell you you guys up here are funny. But thats why I keep coming up here having my fun.

[maoshan]

You know,
There is just too much crap to answer to here but I don't have the time, so i'll keep it simple.

1. I respect all fighters regardless of style.

2. my concern is with the internal arts as it being taught.

3. As for giving the names of individual teachers. My brother made the point but I'm going to add this,
Just as when we mentioned Park and all the BS that came out of that, What would happen if we gave ya'll 20 names? what would happen? Now you got a hundred people losing thier minds because One of us destroyed thier delusion. A few of parks people tried to jump BT because they could not handle it. Why set our selves up for even more $hit. Few people have the honor that was had in the past. I mean just 20yrs ago if you got beat you either came back and tried again or handled it. Today they'll shoot you. We should do that? for what?
The point was to make the people aware to not be so gulliable.
Come on I searched continuously over a period 26yrs found fakes and the real thing. I was lucky. I found more real than fake.
You have to ask yourself as well, Is this right? Is this what i've read about? or close to it? It is not for use to do your foot work for you. In fact about a year ago or so, I was asked who I thought was good and I supplied a list On KFO of about maybe 20 people. The question is who didn't I mention. which means nothing anyway because I don't know everybody.
Again, It's just to be aware.


Phantom Menace

33yrs total, 22 in the Internal.

(All your challenges seem to be directed to the internal martial artist)

Because I want the standard to be raised. The internal is the joke of the martial arts world in terms of self-defence. The only way to get better is to use it (which most can't) or stay traped in the delusion.

Who did I make fun of? I was making a point about lack of skill and what made him think that he had enough skill to put $5000
on the line?
Your making things up.

But even more to the point. the style makes no differance. either you can fight or you can't. and No I most assuredly would not look like that poor guy who got suckered out of his money.

I could hit all of you with something, but i'm really beginning to see what the masters keep telling us. We have no aurguments amonst the instructors at large. if they do, it's personal but most of you guys aurgue for the hell of it. No one addresses the issue.
Forget the charecter, Is the point valid? Forget the expression, Is it true? Yes we are hardcore but we're fighters and make points not in the most politically correct way so thats the excuse not to address the issue? Bull$hit!
I'm Out.

[Shadow Dragon]

Maoshan.

I understand what your gripe is and what you are saying.

One problem though, and that is where you and BT will always run into a wall.

Many of the Guys like Park are recognised and published MA Instructors.

Most People in the IMA scene will look toward the published material and known Masters to form their opinions about what MA should be.
In short you are going up against the peoples perception of what MA should be.
That is a loosing battle unless you can show concise proof of your statements/claims and be willing to make those public (Magazines, Books,etc) and let them be examined/tested/evaluated by others.

I can try to arrange a meeting with the Taiki-Ken people over here for BT when he comes over.
Those Guys are considered very good and tough IMA fighters over here.

Cheers.

[Phantom Menace]

BT and Moashan,

I actually like you guys. I say the same thing to other internal guys, but I'm just not as abrasive and threatening, sometimes.

What I'm telling you guys is that you're pointing out this instance of this poor sansoo guy and saying he got beaten because he has no skill. I don't think you can judge a person's skill by watching one tape of his defeat. You don't know how good that BJJ guy is.

I like your concerns about internalist not having fighting skills. Sure I've made the same observations and comments and got a whole bunch of people hating me too. They hate me for saying what they don't want to hear because they want to live in their little kung fu fantasy world. People here blast you guys for the same reason. You're bursting their martial arts fantasy bubble.

What I'm saying is that perhaps you guys are also guilty of living in a martial arts fantasy bubble. Your fate against a BJJ, submission grappler or a vale tudo fighter with half the years of experience that you guys have will not be any different than any of these other kung fu guys. It just depends on who you end up tangling with.

Against fairy bunny internal martial artist, you guys might be the ultimate fighter. In the world of mixed martial arts you're just another slug. Don't confuse the reality of the real world to the reality of the world your created in your mind.

Please, don't take offense, I think you guys are great. I just think you shouldn't judge other people's kung fu skill unless you've put yourself in the same situation and have the video to prove it. That's why I suggest that you fight some grappler of good repute. Video tape it and post it on the internet. Fight a BJJ black belt (that means about 10-12 years of training, less than half of Moashan's) or an amateur cage fighter. I'm sure guys who fight in the King of the Cage, UFC, Kage Kombat or similar venues will accomodate you. Will you put $5000 on the line to prove your skills?

We all want to see the "real kung fu skills that you claim to know.

Thanks, no malice was intended in writing this post. Don't hate me for saying what you need to hear. Peace.

[blacktaoist]

Phantom Menace

I don't hate you, Why should I. You never did anything to me. But I'm not puting up $5000 to fight anyone. Now if a Bjj practitioner put $5000 on the line to fight them. I be more then willing to compare skills with them for their own money.

What I'm telling you guys is that you're pointing out this instance of this poor sansoo guy and saying he got beaten because he has no skill.

I have over 500 tapes of all kinds of fighting. From boxing, king of the cage, Bjj matchers, pride, UFC. All I do is train with other martial artists and veiw tapes, work, visit other countrys to train with other martial artist. And after looking at that movie clip of that poor Kung fu guy, any trained individual can see that Kung Fu guy was low level. Like I said I know people in my community that can fight better then that, and they don't even know martial arts.

The bottom line is I train,spar, and fought all kinds of people ground fighting is nothing new to me , I trained in boxing and Judo for years as a kid, before I even come to train in the internal martial arts. So I have knowledge of ground work, chokes and locks.

And I still train them and teach them. ground fighting is only a problem to internal martial artist that don't have knowledge of their ways of attacking, offensive and defensive methods. And that kung fu guy didn't have a clue, how sad.

Phantom Menace I a open minded individual , and if we ever meet in this life time, you see I not just talking Bull$hit I love to compare skills. I don't care what style a person do, standing or ground fighting , I can adapt to both and I teach my students the same.

And I'm sorry, but that guy was low level, and he did have any knowledge of wrestling,or ground defense. He was to easy preay for anyone that had some kind of ground fighting background. $hit I have friends that train in judo for only a few years, That I know can take that guy out.

Phantom Menace, if anyone may be living in a martial arts fantasy bubble, I have to say its you. If you think that guy had some kind of real Kung Fu skill, or any fighting skill at all.

Tell you what, I have a very good friend that trained with a tai chi master in singapore, named Lau Kim Hong, my friend now lives in China town new york, if you are ever in New York, let me know, I love to see you try that ground $hit on him. The olny reason I welcome you to come, is because I think you are real with your $hit, then these punks up here.

Every ground fighter That I take to meet my friend can 't do $hit with him. Know I never like tai Chi to much , but after seeing my friend in action, I had to learn his push hands method from him. And I know a lot of push hands players that also can do very well against ground fighters and Bjj players. They no real big deal to most internal practitiuoners that train their push hands and Tai Chi methods for combat. Real Internal martial art Fighters.

To deal with your kind of people, its all about a internal practitioner knowing the substantial and insubstantial in action.

Peace
BT

Don't get mad, I'm just having Fun.

[maoshan]

Yo, that was hot.

Phantom Menace


Why would I do that?
Fighters, fight to fight. Do you understand?
But if they want to, I'm game.

Do you really think that I have that kind of tunnel vision that I've only stayed within the confines of Ba-Gua with my fighting?
Yo, I'll just say this, I trained on the ground for a very long time and I'm also a Gymnast. You have to understand the time that it was, There was much more Karate than kung fu Practitioners.
In those days , Kung Fu got little respect, and all the Karate guys wanted to fight us. So trust me I've had more than a little experiance with various styles.
Besides, you have to fight other styles. how do you know if your good? how do you test your self? I've trained and fought too hard ,too long to go out like that guy did.
I'm not the best, but That's what I strive to be.
The only way I'll get there is by being true to my self.
And I'll tell you this, ( a word to the wise) for all you that say and feel that we know everything,
I know nothing, but most you guys know even less.

Yes, I can see if an individual can fight or not on tape. and in truth, can somebody tell me the differance between being there and watching it on the TV? I mean if your right there, you can't get but so close to see what's going on. at home you get close ups. That whole thought has always puzzled me. Boxers do it constantly to understand thier opponent. but again I'm talking about fighters. If you can't see it ,you must not be.

You say, as far as dealing with the mixed world of MA.
I say, I deal with the WORLD of Martial arts. True martial artist develop either technique(s) or a skill(s) or both. Based on a firm foundation.
Eclectic styles rarly ( if at all) impart a true and strong foundation.
Against Someone that's truly trained in the internal, Grapplers have got a real problem. besides my Qinna has keep all grapplers off me. At this I'm good, But that's Bull$hit! I want a single technique. No matter what tec I use, the fight is over. So trust me, I fight hard because I have a goal.
I don't need to go out and find anyone to prove anything for the public. I meet people as I go through life, and we compare through sparring , form, and concepts. next.
If your in my circle you get my thoughts on the topic. No big deal.

And lastly
Prove for who? make a tape? Post it?
(this does not apply to every one out there, But most)
Why? for a bunch of people who couldn't take true training sustained over a period of 100 days anyway? I will not be Entertainment.
Look, it's like this in a nutshell,
Neither one of us claimed to be the end all be all.
It's all about the quality that's being presented to represent the Internal.
In order to learn martial Arts you have to be willing to make great sacrifice. In obtaining a teacher as well as training. In order to be good in the internal takes a hell of a lot of desire. You have to want it. You just can't do the moves and wait for the mythical supernatural Qi to make you able to do the fantastic.
It takes considerable effort to learn to merge the Body, heart, mind and spirit into one, and move that way.
These personal opinions about our percieved charectors has nothing to do with the points being made.

I'm not looking for anyone to agree with me, Just check it out for yourselves with an honest, open mind.

Maoshan

[SSgungfu]

WHAT IS THIS JUNK? ALL I SEE HERE ARE 2 BLACK PEOPLE AND A CHINESE GUY. WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MAKE ME THINK?

COME NEAR ME AND ILL KILL YOU. THATS MY MARTIAL LAW. BALANCE OF PEACE AND POWER, THATS MY MARTIAL STATUS QUO. **** ALL YALL

[Crimson Phoenix]

It reminds me of that story...
there was a shrink who had a neighbor who, everytime their path crossed, would curse and cuss and spit on him...all the time, it never failed, and the shrink wouldd just pass by and say nothing. One day, this neighbor moved out, to another city...the doorman of the building, aware like everyone of what was going on with this neighbour, then asked the shrink "hey, mister, you must be pretty relieved and happy he's gone"...the shrink just said "well, it doesn't really matter...HE was the one with a problem".

I shouldn't explain you what I mean by that, but since the story could be taken the exact opposite way of what it means, I will still do: MANY people are ruffed up byt BT's ways...many are irritated, feel insulted, whatever. But paradoxically, in my story he is not the neighbour, he is the shrink...if you do not like his ways and feel insulted and ruffed up right away when reading his words, then surely YOU are the ones with the problems...not him...

Lots of people here are really fast to talk about wude or self-development through MA, yet I see seldom put in in application.
What do I mean by that? Well, either you are clear and honest with your practice, in which case you shoudln't even feel a tingling when reading BT's words, either you doubt. And if you doubt there's a reason...and it's YOU, only YOU that can do something about it. This is what is also meant by "better light a candle, than curse the darkness". If you feel so much BT is wrong, prove it. Or at least ignore it and don't spend time arguing endlessly, as it won't change anything to his practice or to yours, and it won't change what will happen when your azz is in real danger...

You got to admit the man is straightforward. More than anyone here. And he's willing to backup his claims. OK, OK, he might not be very good in the diplomatic field, but as honest martial artists you shouldn't need everything to be sugar-coated like that. Because truth hurst sometimes. Truth is not always beautiful to look at, but it's the eye's fault, not the Truth's.

I enjoy reading BT...I feel perfectly secure with my own practice, which means first and foremost that I know where I suck, where I fail, and where I'm good at...I could be either depressed about my limitations (Hell yeah LOL), and let my ego find some excuses and lame justifications (quite comforting for the spirit, but useless when the moment of Truth ie survival, arrives), or I could just realize "OK, you know what lacks, now quit whining and do something about it". If BT tells me (OK, Im trying for a good imitation, but it's going to be lame LOL) "Yo, Phoenix, you started bagua 2 years ago, you can't fight with none of your bagua, yet you keep bull$hiting me about this and that, and about how your teacher is the shi@t, have you tried his hands??" Will I feel insulted? No...I know **** well when I fight my external does come out, but not my bagua. I know quite well I would be very lame trying to fight the bagua way. I don't even know if my teacher can fight, I haven't tested him or seen him being tested. so why feel insulted? I just believe, train, and get what I'm given. That is as far as it goes.
In other words, I know myself as a fighter, and sometimes I win, often I lose...I'm still alive so I guess there are things I do well, or I'm lucky maybe...but instead of jusst whining and bi@tching, I know what to do: move my azz and do something about it. I won't curse the darkness, but will instead spend my time and energy trying to find a match to light that dayam candle.

SORRY everyone if I sounded like a lesson giver. it wasn't my intention at all. Nor was it my intention to criticize or attack anyone in particular. It was just a rant that came out like that after reading that topic. A rant that shows how unenlightened I am. A guy trying to help the others too much reveal how shallow he is...coming with these wisdom quotes, I revealed how un-wise I am. Evolution and Truth are just like MA: you can have the best teacher in the world, he just can't do what you need to do in your place.
SORRY again everyone for that waste of time of a rant.

[Shadow Dragon]

Crimson Phoenix.

Nice post and good points made.

[Rant On]
Personally, I think that BT and Maoshan make a very valid point.
I simply don't like the way they come across and some of their arguments for the way they do things.
Sorry, it smacks too much of Troll tactics I seen here and on many other boards.

I feel that they got some skill and feel strongly about their agenda, but don't believe that their skill is as high as they make it out to be nor that their understanding is that good.

Naturally I might be wrong, but from what I read here it sounds like so many other Guys on the Net pushing their agenda.
I know where I stand in relation to MA, fighting and IMA.
I also know the following:

"That anybody can beat anybody else on their good day"

MA does not make fighters, but it makes existing fighter into better fighters.
For the majority of people MA training might give them a slight advantage in a confrontation.

How do I feel about the modern MA scene.
MA is evolving to conform to todays requirements and needs
Today we live in a safer society than ever in human History.
Yes, MA 60yrs ago were better fighters but than the times were different., maybe in another 60yrs we need fighters of the same caliber again and they will be there.

In order for MA to survive they have to conform to the needs of the time, what was once discovered can be discovered again by the right people.

"Those who don't know talk, those who know don't talk."

{Rant Off}

Cheers

[Mizong_Kid]

hhhhmmmm

so much anger here!

[CD Lee]

Maoshan said:

It doesn’t make any sense at all. This guy put up $5000, as the story relates, to fight a BJJ practitioner. Now he did have heart, I’ll give him that, but the rest falls on his teacher. Who else?
Who sets the standard by which you follow? Your teacher.
Who do you question about all things martial? Your teacher.
That’s the way it supposed to be.

BlackTaoist said:

This show me just how dumb some people are, It not about asking your teacher $hit, if your teacher is teaching you fake $hit. Bottom line is, most of you punks can't apply your $hit in a real situation, like always you try to go around the issue of the discussion.

You two guys are confusing me. BT your ENTIRE argument is based on the ability to somehow judge your teachers internal fighting skills. This is difficult. Your whole tirade has nothing to do with internal arts, but the whole of any martial art system, which all have the same problems you mention constantly.

I would ask my teacher as Maoshan suggests of all things martial. However, as BT suggests, he might be teaching me fake sh!t, in which case I can only find out by fighting him unreahearsed to see if I can kick his @ss. However, I could actually suck quite a bit more than I think and still get my ass kicked even though he skill level 'could' be lower than I think. In which case, I make the foolhardy conclusion that he beat me due to his superior internal skill.

As the bad guy in Kung Pow enter the fist said, "Well, CRAP MAN!"

[blacktaoist]

Shadow Dragon

I feel that they got some skill and feel strongly about their agenda, but don't believe that their skill is as high as they make it out to be nor that their understanding is that good.

I Already told you I don't care what you think. And I don't have a agenda, not up here on KFO. I'm not looking for students up here, I post up here when I feel like posting something.

Anyway when I'm in Japan, we can compare skills and we can see just how much understanding you have in apply your $hit unrehearse. No fix step Bull$hit The hell with the talking, Because I believe you be just like the rest of these KFO I have encounter, real easy to handle.


CD Lee:

as BT suggests, he might be teaching me fake sh!t, in which case I can only find out by fighting him unreahearsed to see if I can kick his @ss. However, I could actually suck quite a bit more than I think and still get my ass kicked even though he skill level 'could' be lower than I think. In which case, I make the foolhardy conclusion that he beat me due to his superior internal skill.

My point is every teacher I learn from I test their martial art skills. If I beat them, I move on. What's the use learning from a teacher that can't utilize their skills in a unrehearse freestyle fighting situation. Man, I don't have time for the games Cd Lee you are not dumb. so stop acting like you are.

You guys are to funny up here.

[blacktaoist]

Crimson Phoenix
your post was right on the money. I feel these P.C. punks get upset because they know deep down within themself, their truly punks. I told these dumb P.C, punks that I'm just posting my veiw points about martial art as an individual, nothing more, nothing less.

But like always P.C. punks love to make $hit up, and claim I made statements saying I'm the best and other Bull$hit they love to come up with. But what's real funny not one of these P.C. punks will say the bull$hit in my face.

Now I may talk $hit. But one thing for sure, I'm not hiding behind a P.C. like a punk, or I'm I posting as two individuals on KFO, talking like a Chinese scholar, and skilled expert. Most of these P.C. punks live right here in the New York area. But they posting like their from other state or even a country. Now that's a true punk ass.

I told you, these guys are to funny for me to take for real. That's why I 'm having my fun up here.

[CD Lee]

BT said:

Man, I don't have time for the games Cd Lee you are not dumb. so stop acting like you are.

OK fair enough. Your right, I'm not dumb but I am also demonstrating a point. Your way of looking at this whole affair is very Yang and little Yin. First, you know I like your stuff so lets get that straight.

You state that Kung Fu is not about philosophy or other aspects other than just the martial and that is simply untrue and out of balance to begin with. You know well that the internals that we study are formed to a large degree on Taoist teachings and understandings. I am not saying it is religion or anything like that, but there is some balance. You can say it is only about fighting, but it does not make it true. This is why your mantra is not well accepted by many. What you say is true, just not the whole truth. There is a big difference.

Now, what you hate is crappy Kung Fu. And you should. What makes crappy Kung Fu are many different things. Some schools do not focus enough on the martial, probably because they can't. Your great implication is that THE 'reason' so many kung fu schools are crap is because they think about philosophy and forms and never fight or spar. Daoist principles do not make them bad fighters, not fighting makes them bad fighters. A great fighter than sucks at teaching, makes bad fighters.

Also, using your method to test a Sifu is not practical for a beginner. This makes it very difficult for newer practitioners to follow your advice. It sounds great, but is hard to pull off for most people in reality. Also a great sifu can be older than 60, and I 'aint fighting an old man period. His students may or may not be a good measure, because they get skilled and usually move, then you have the new batch which may suck for quite a while. This happens.

As for the San Soo clip, I cannot believe you pulled that old thing out. We have all been over that clip. They guy is practically a kick boxer and not good. And, he does fight in San Soo, but he sucked badly. His hands were down, he was square to the opponent. How the hell could he even get off any powerful technique like that???? I hope to God he could not actually win a San Soo fight that same way. He is the last example I would use to rant about internal methods with.

One point that I would like to bring up once again, is that even external schools by the droves, fight and spar, and still can't fight well. A few can, most can't.