untangling threads and 'agendas'

[r.(shaolin)]

I've spending some time in catching

[GeneChing]

Hey r(shaolin) -
Have you had a chance to read the cover story of our last issue (NovDec 2002) - ti's an interview with Ma Xianda and he addresses some of these issues. Our cover stories are available online now - check that one out at http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/maga...hp?article=244

NIce to have you back posting with us!

[mantis108]

Good post. Except that I would be very careful with the word "sport". In translating Chinese, the term physical education (Ti Yue) is often gotten mixed up with sports (Yuen Dong). The connotations are far different. One is academic oriented while the other is entertainment baised. Well, PRC attitude towards TCMA has always been entertainment first. Practicality is non of its concern. That's why there is Morden Wushu farcy. If we have to blame the lineage problem on someone. PRC is equally guilty as the GMD if not being worst.

Regards

Mantis108

[r.(shaolin)]

Yes I am aware that ‘tiyu’

[GeneChing]

The idea of military sports has always intrigued me (no wonder why) but I never really considered it from the Chinese angle and the tiyue. This is sort of off topic, but did you know they are trying to eliminate Pentathalon from the Olympics? To make room for wushu, something will have to go. IOC president Samaranch is really trying to cut down the number of games. It would be a shame since pentathalon has a grand military tradition, essentially invented for the modern olympics, with Patton being one of it's earliest champions.

The military sports get the short end of the stick nowadays, since many of the skills like in the pentathon are obsolete for military like fencing and equestrianship. There's an interesting parallel in there.

[mantis108]

<<<Yes I am aware that ‘tiyu’(the proper pinyin) does not mean sport in the narrow sense of sitting in front of the TV with a beer : -)))>>>

I hear you and thanks for the pinyin.

<<< Literally the term means ‘body-cultivation.’ But issue is more than the word being used. There really was a whole range of thoughts and ideas circulating about how to modernize martial arts during that time which were colored by western ideas of ‘sport’. The range included everything from, the trappings of sports which included competition, rewards, etc. to pastime and recreation to military-themed calisthenics.>>>

I see where you are coming from. I would agree in part. At the same time, I believe you have addressed another important and politically motivated issue which is how to reform the formerly underground organizations that many masters were a part of. By assigning new values to MA and perhaps even licensing schools, there would be a new check mechanism in place for halting underground organizations to recruit new members through the Kwoons. I believe this one stone two birds strategy that the GMD government, which had major support from the underground groups during its rise to power, at the time came up with during those sensitive period.

<<<Many people are unaware that during the late Qing Dynasty two aspects of western physical culture were influential in this regard. One was German-Swedish military calisthenics and gymnastics and two, English and American sports, that is track and field and ball games. These imports did much to shape the modern notions of Chinese tiyu.>>>

This is an interesting point. Are you suggesting that Conditioning Cross-Training (ie weight training, cardio training, etc..) is a direct result of the western imports? Is Conditioning Cross-Training really a foreign idea to TCMA? I believe there are old publications that suggest otherwise. Calisthenics such as push ups (i.e Hindu push up aka iron buffalo) were once integral part of CMA training. After WWII, there was somehow a paradigm shift in that the so-call internal training methodology becames the most sought after, thus begin a slow and long decline in combat quality of CMA. Having said that we can still find calithenics like "gong" in TCMA even in internal arts.

Regards

Mantis108

[r.(shaolin)]

mantis108

First of all I agree with both your posts re:
'sport'. Its clear as well, that not all influential members of either the Jingwu or the goushu organizations agreed or even had the same ideas on how to modernize wushu. Some in fact some were extremely conservative and traditional in their views.

It is 'intention' that informs what may be on the surface a similar action or form. The same with 'qi kong'. IMO qi kong does not have the same intention as western calisthenics. And I'm sure you know, some 'qikong' had a martial intention, others did not.

Gene
I think the same goes for military sports. As an example the use of 'sport' used by the Mongols had
a different intention than those of the west.
(before I forget I'm still working on that little project : -)))

Basically, One simply has to take culture and tradition into account.

As a final point I would say that as CMA were changed, in many ways for the better, there were some positive and vital aspects of the old traditions that were lost in the process.
These include: the student/teacher relationship
and the positive role of secrecy.

r.

[GeneChing]

... you just have a harder time to find it since it's secret

Seriously, I hear what your saying - it ties into the whole notion of martial arts as performance. Certainly it has been a sport in some sense since its beginning. It has only been recently that it has become such a performance due to the relatively new technology of movies. When you think about it, movies have had as great an impact on CMA as anything in the last few decades. And that's still growing.

But as for secrets, I think every older martial artist learns to keep a few secrets just for survival. It's just a sensible tacktic when surrounded by younger, more physically adept, classmates. You know, I get these requests to publish articles about the secret masters all the time and it's kind of frustrating because the very inquiry is a conundrum. Heisenberg in effect, perhaps.

Anyway, back to modernization, I actually think that's great because it will appeal to a wider audience. As for the 'secrets', those will always stay 'in familia.' Nevermind what might happen to modern sport wushu, long live shaolin family. We'll keep the lamp burning.

[Blackspear]

I have been following the posts and i appreciate the maturity of the convo you guys are having and i dont mean to interrupt but i have one question,

When It comes to secrecy , do you think Masters Should hold back a couple things cause i think that is wrong , Cuase I believe a teacher should not hold out on his students, because if the case was that the sifu was afraid a young strong student was capable of hurting him then the sifu has not been doing his job in comtinuing his training.

[mantis108]

First off I think the dynamic of this thread is great.

r.(Shaolin)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I believe you have brought up further interesting points.

<<<'sport'. Its clear as well, that not all influential members of either the Jingwu or the goushu organizations agreed or even had the same ideas on how to modernize wushu. Some in fact some were extremely conservative and traditional in their views.>>>

One thing I find interesting is that they seem to both doing a set number of forms (10 in total) as the entry level. While Jing Wu has a wide variety in their 10 forms. The Nanjing Goushu seems to be hand forms only for the entry level. But then I could be wrong on the speculation. It is highly understandable that it is almost impossible with the task to systemize more style than one. Given the time frame, there simply wasn't enough time.

<<<It is 'intention' that informs what may be on the surface of a similar action or form. The same with 'qi kong'. IMO qi kong does not have the same intention as western calisthenics. And I'm sure you know, some 'qikong' had a martial intention, others did not.>>>

Yes, I agree that Qigong is way different then western calisthenics and that the martial intention is sometime not "taught" in the Qigong forms. I think this deserves it own thread for a indepth discussion.

Hi Gene and Black Spear,

I think the secrecy thing is a bit over kill in both the east and the west. It is to the point that it's becoming a myth of its own. Having you ever comtemplate the idea that your teachers, as human beings, grow as well? Personally, I feel there is no set limit to the height of personal growth. While your teachers grow, which might be too intimate an event to share with anyone in the first place, he might not want to go through the whole long agonizing process with you. Not that he doesn't want to but it's like he's too busy to share the "pain" with you. As you are working the same thing over and over, he came up with "better" way of doing things based on his experience and you thought it's a secret that he didn't share. My personal experience tells me that it certainly impress the students more if you do something that is not routinely done with the same thing. Some of them do joke about those being secrets but it was never a secret (it never intented to be in my mind). Those are finer details that are further refined since I have gone throught yet another growth spur. I understand the desire to romanticize Kung Fu and the masters' abilities but then we are all human and as such we are all capable of being amazing from time to time.

Regards

Mantis108

[GeneChing]

I do think masters should keep secrets from anyone with an evil heart. You must look into your student's heart and determine whether it is good. If it is, empower them. If it is not, keep your secrets until it is.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Don't forget age. BT - no matter what, you get older. True your technical ability can increase, but your fighting attributes will decrease. Keeping a secret or two keeps you in the game with the youngsters.

Personally, I don't hold back anymore with people of good heart. If we do, the arts are diluted or wasted.

But I'm no 'master', just a coach, so maybe my opinions don't matter so much...

[GeneChing]

I don't call myself a master either, especially given the company I hang out with here. We get full on masters here in the office all the time.

And in the past, I've regretted showing some techniques to people who used them for wickedness. I suppose that's the hardest part of teaching - judging your students heart. Of course, this assumes that you have some secret worth sharing.