Need help with fighting

[omarthefish]

Well, I'll admit I do like tracing lineages I like to know what's transmitted and what's just your personal take although I'm not sure how it's relevant here. Are you trying to imply that if you make a point of learning the history of your art you can't fight?

I don't know what you mean by 'a categories guy'at all. Feel free to elaborate. It sounds like your saying I'm close minded but if you meant something nicer please let me know.

1) The traditional Hung Ga salute is done on one leg. The OTHER leg, bent, can be a kick or a knee.

As a 'lineage guy'you think I'm not aware of how the traditonal salute is done? I suppose your ceraintly in position for a snapkick. . . I just think you shouldn't make to much out of this salute.


2) Typically, the opening salute is done with a fist in one hand with an open palm in the other. . .

Don't get to worked up. I'm just quibbling over calling it a reverse punch. If the terminology is not clear than BBS communication is an exercise in futility. I've always thought of a 'reverse punch'as being in a classic bow stance.


3) When you are grappling, particularly in close quarters or on the ground, often the opponent's head is well within your reach. . .

I already agreed that this had possibilities. I think that the hanging stance is suicide if your grappling.


7) When astride an opponent (you're in the "mount" position) . . .

What? This is just way to much of a stretch. Now the salute can be interpreted as a part of ground fightong. That opening couldn't be ****her away from a choke.

9) In old China, this stance . . .

I'm sticking with my original comment on this one. You could certainly change it and then make it a 'ready' stance, but then it's NOT the opening move.

10) You're right. I ought to stay away from making these moves. Heaven forbid I pull them on some guy trying to take me out - I might HURT HIM.

You certainly might. You also could do that just from experimenting with your friends and trying out all sorts of your own personal made up combinations. That doesn't mean they're there in the form.

You talk, I spar. And that's that.

This comment is just a cheap shot. To me it demonstates a kind of close mindedness I feel you implied I had by labeling me as a 'lineage guy' or a 'categories guy'

How do you know how I train? Some people talk, some spar, some actually fight. Is it because Idisagree strongly on your interpretations that I must be ignorant of the practical aspects? Perhaps it's because I said DM shouldn't be to axious to spar to early.

I believe in making every effort to grasp the original flavor of a given style of fighting. In the end we all must find our own way but as you know, there is more to Hung-gar than just a collection of external movements. There are principles at work and if you try to ruch into sparring to early or to fast you will probably learn to fight but you won't learn what HUNG GAR has to say about fighting. You will learn much faster and more effectively by just taking the standard MMA mix of Thai boxing, wresting/Judo and western boxing.

I take issue with many of your suggestions because if you are
fighting as opposed to sparring they will put you in a world of trouble.

[HuangKaiVun]

More like they'll get you out of a world of trouble, which is the whole point of learning fast effective techniques.

For every technique I have listed that you don't like, I can think of plenty of other professionals who USE this stuff day in and day out.

Confucius say "The teacher holds up one corner, the student comes up with the other three". Just because you can't accept something to work doesn't mean that it won't - particularly in the hands of somebody who CAN make it work.

Eventually, you'll realize that Hung Ga isn't about adhering to form and lineage.

You'll realize that Hung Ga is about realizing YOUR potential, not about copying others.

[omarthefish]

They may be used by professionals every day but that is completely irrelevant to wether or not they are contained with the opening movements to the form.

"Getting you out of a world of trouble", may be the whole point of learning fast effective techniques but learning fast effective techniques is not the whole point of Hung Gar. I repeat: If your primary goal is to learn to fight quickly, you are better off with the standard MMA mix.

Your quote is somebody elses translation from something said by one of Confucious's students, Chen Kung. He said, "wen yi de san" Literally translated it means, "ask 1 get 3".

I love the irony of using Confucious to support freedom from tradition and creativity in your interpretations of movements.

While, out of context, it can be seen to be an argument for extrapolating from techniques on your own, in context it suggests more that you should be able to use the information learned in one field of study and apply it to others. Bo Yu asks Chen Kung how he learned about rites and social customs and good speech if he only studied poetry. Chen Kung replies, "Ask 1 get 3. By studying poetry, I learned about poetry, rites and the proper relationship between student and teacher."

When learning a technique you should certainly be sensitive to priniciples which may apply to other techniques or situations but the original techniques is still the original technique. If it stimulates you imagination, good for you, but that stuff is just what you made up on ytour own wether it works or not.

Eventually maybe you'll realize that a superficial similarity between techniques doesn't make for a valid interpretation.

Eventually maybe you will realize that includes learning the original intent behind the forms and includes lineage.

Eventually maybe you'll realize some of the benifits of learning what tradition has to say on certain subjects.

Eventually maybe you'll realize that copying others is the main way we learn and does not interfere with your ability to create new things.

Lastly, how does any of this have to do with the original question about sparring? Specifically, "having trouble applying them while I am sparring." This argument about what is or is not in the form is off topic. I apologize for that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by DrunkenMunky
I've been taking Hung gar for about 10 months now and I've learned a lot of the basics but I'm having trouble applying them while I am sparring. I feel like I haven't progressed since I started, is that a bad sign? Are there any tips to improve my fighting? Are there any special drills or forms to help me become a better fighter?

If you don't think you've progressed ANY in ten months, then yes, that is a bad sign. It shouldn't take you that long to notice progress. To help make yourself a better fighter, analyze yourself - write it down. I find that helpful. you want to:

1. Identify flaws in your fighting
2. Identify strong points
3. Determine how you can improve the weaknesses
4. put it all together

Basically, you must have a plan, and you have to train. Hard. No quick and dirty shortcuts. You stated that you can't apply the basics while fighting. Put that in your analysis. That alone tells me that you either aren't drilling them enough or aren't drilling them properly. Have you brought this issue to your sifu? If so, what did he say?

[HuangKaiVun]

omarthefish, those were very well-worded arguments.

The trouble is that making up one's own applications in Hung Ga has EVERYTHING TO DO with sparring.

I see that you're learning Hung Ga just for the sake of learning Hung Ga. Once again, I learn Hung Ga to FIGHT.

Copying others may be the only way YOU learn, but that's not the case for many others. Forget not that there would be no Hung Ga if somebody didn't invent it. SOMEBODY invented it, and somebody added to it. Lam Tsai Wing even added his own Saber set to the style to deal with Western weaponry.

I'm as traditional as they come, which means that I understand the need to make up one's own applications as well as using that from the past. The true traditional way is to adjust to new situations regardless of the "rules".

When you actually fight, you'll be confronted by many strange situations that even the best training cannot totally prepare a person for. That's where a fighter has to innovate his own approach to things. No teacher can do that for a student - a student must come up with his own answers on the fly. THIS is what Hung Ga is supposed to teach.

Valid? Ask anybody who has really fought and they'll tell you that the only "valid" thing is that which WORKS.

You need to get in the ring and SPAR, omarthefish.

You'll see and feel what I'm talking about - THE HARD WAY.

[omarthefish]

I see that you're learning Hung Ga just for the sake of learning Hung Ga. Once again, I learn Hung Ga to FIGHT.

That is probably true. I started out in gong-fu to learn to fight. I have done PLENTY of sparring. Eventually I got bored with that. I could list a dozen reasons why I train gong-fu. (actually since my move to China I've switched from Hung Gar to Baji ) Hung-gar is worth learning for it's own sake. For pure fighting - BJJ is probably better. I am not even saying I feel it is superior for fighting but the learning curve is quicker. Thai Boxing is also almost pure fighting. It is primarily in the longer term that a traditional art rewards you.

Copying others may be the only way YOU learn, but that's not the case for many others . . .

I said copying is the MAIN way we learn. We start by copying. It's how we learned to speak. It's how we learned to walk. Later we move on to creating. I also believe there is nothing new under the sun.Just new combinations of old stuff. From yin and yang to the "ten thousand things". 000101110110101010101 . . . .

You need to get in the ring and SPAR, omarthefish.

I agree and I do . . . er . . did. Not here in China. I did a lot more sparring back in San Francisco.


Sevenstar,
Good post. good suggestions.

I find that for each sparring session it is helpfull to work on small specific goals. Instead of trying to get the whole thing down at once. eg:

1. today I am only going to concentrate on outflanking him. He attacks - I step IN diagonally.
2. today I am going to concentrates on combo x,y,z. Whatever he throws I am going to return this 3 hit combo.
3. today I am going to concentrate on bridging the gap. I am going to spar with that tall guy with the huge reach and try to get inside.
3. today I WILL NOT DROP MY LEFT when I shoot out my right.

etc.

HuangKaiVun,
It's been a pleasure debating with you. I don't often get to disagree with someone that strongly and still maintain a civil tone. I thought you were gonna drop to more name calling but you didn't. I'm gonna try and keep directly to the topic from here out.

Later.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

HuangkaiVun:

What do you know about fighting when you posted in the praying mantis section that the mantis hooks of a novice twarted your kung fu and you got your azz whooped. I know you talk and talk too much for your own good. Don't forget to front up with the goods, like what you haven't done eventhough you have issued a challenge to a cripple. I'll elaborate on this point if need be.

Learning Hung gar to fight is like going for a p1ss when what you really want to do is a sh1t. Hung gar is not a fightin g style and a ground fighter would whoop you any day. I recollect you saying that you have not sparred against a BJJ. Let me tell you they can be formidable.

Omarthefish:

The fact that you got bored with sparring with Hungar is probably because you have learned all there is to know about hung gar. Your move to Baji is a good one. It is an excellent fighting style and you'll do well by training hard in it.

Remembering that even the special forces in china today train in a mixture of northern kung fu. one of them is Baji.

[omarthefish]

Ego,

I'll play along.

Hung Gar is just about the most brutally effective fighting style I've come across in my 15 years of study.

You recollect incorectly.

I have sparred with both wrestlers and BJJ guys. The first time out I did indeed get whooped. But that was in a Judo class where we were only wrestling. It took a couple months to get used to it. Since then I have faced both and faired well. It just takes a tiny bit of cross training. You don't even have to learn the grappling arts in their entirety. Just a few basics and things to look out for.

Of all the Chinese arts, Hung-gar is one of the best vs. grapplers. It has more stand-up grappling than hitting. Other styles that come to mind as being well suited to deal with grapplers would be taiji, bagua and southern mantis.

You said, "The fact that you got bored with sparring with Hungar is probably because you have learned all there is to know about hung gar. "

I never said I got bored sparring with Hung Gar. I just said I got bored with mostly sparring. There's more to life to sparring and there are many things you won't learn sparring. There are also mistakes you can ingrain during sparring. Sparring will teach you mostly to fight like a kickboxer. You will tend to avoid the parts of your art which make it distinctive. You will reduce an art as varied and multifaceted as Hung Gar to a collection of boxing style punches with the occasional grab and low kick added in for flavor.

Lastly, what special forces? Could you give me a source I could refer to. I know the bodyguards to the last emperor and also to Chiang Kai Shek were my Shishu but I have not been able to locate any justification to the claim that "special forces" in China train in a mixture of northern and Baji. The capital, Beijing is in the north so northern shaolin would make sense but from I've seen military personel are basically just trained in basic sanda techniques and an ad hoc mixture of chin na depending on what the trainer has the most experience with.

I have made the switch to Baji because I live in Northwest China and there is very little SOUTHERN style Gong-fu here in NORTHERN China.

I spent about 8 Years in Hung Gar and it was VERY difficult to make the decision to leave, especially without learning the coveted iron wire set. Maybe when I get back to the states I will have my chance.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Omarthefish:

I had posted that URL before, that was months ago where there was a debate between northern and southern kung fu - which was better.

Anyway, serious martial artist do northern kung fu. You can check out this URL.

http://www.thegompa.com/am/drpresume.htm

Hunggar is not really that brutal. It is stiff and slow. You'll realize that once you'd had a bit more experience in Baji.

[omarthefish]

Just heading out the door so I'll make it quick and post later.

John Painter? I've got at least one of his videos. It's o.k. I'm sorry to hear the Hung Gar to have seen was so half assed. I have no idea how this URL is supposed to support your claim that serious martial artists do northern gong fu. It's a ridiculous statement. Chang Chuan is northern but IMHO hardly compares to something as nitty griity as Hung Gar, Wing Chun or Southern Mantis.

A more accurate statement would be that Northern Chinese study Northern styles of Gong fu. I actually do think Baji has a few things on Hung Gar but Hung Gar still rocks. I have also practiced Bagua for about 5 years. John Painters Bagua is practical but unimpressive compared to what I've seen.

I'll give you more specifics later when I have time.

[omarthefish]

never mind.

I just got finished reading a bunch of ego's old posts. I didn't realize who I was talking too.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Omarthefish:

Practical should be good enough for you. In any case your statement is incorrect, John is American and not Chinese. He has a good experience from his CV. There are others who have equally as good a CV and they do Northern Kung fu. some chinese some not. Like I said, I don't have that URL which shows the chinese special forces training northern kung fu. If you can find it in one of my older post do take a look.

Hung Gar doesn't rock, it hits rock bottom when it comes to usefulness. I have vanquished many a hung gar player. There's also a hung gar sifu is who is too chicken to front up to his own challenge agaisnt me.

[Jables]

Troll.

That is all.

[omarthefish]

Ego,

Are you retarded or did you just get hit in the head too many times? Where did I say The White AMERICAN texas ranger Painter was Chinese? Then you go on about his CV? Like that has a something to do with his martial ability. He did mention stufying bagua for 10 years. Good for him. He has almost as much training as me.

This is officially my last contribution to the troll. Sorry to see this thread die.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Omarthefish:

"I have no idea how this URL is supposed to support your claim that serious martial artists do northern gong fu. It's a ridiculous statement. A more accurate statement would be that Northern Chinese study Northern styles of Gong fu."

You have no idea. period! Doesn't John Painter prove my point. A) he is a serious martial artist b) he is not chinese.

Like I said earlier, serious martial artist study nothern kung fu then you go on about this nothern kung fu for northern chinese king of sh1t.

Basically you don't even know what you yourself had written. If I'm a retard, you won't even have an a$$ for a head. Hung Gar is a vanquished style and so is Wing Chun. so stff, slow and one dimensional.