Touching Hands

[desertwingchun2]

I have virtually no knowledge of southern mantis so if this question seems out there I apologize. In wing chun we often refer to chi sao when using the term "touching hands". What does this term refer to in the southern mantis system???
-David

[TaoBoy]

David,

It's basically the same thing. However, it is practiced a little differently (from what I have seen of WC chi sau). If you asked me for the differences I wouls struggle to explain as it was subtleties (sp?) that I witnessed.

Suffice to say the theory is the same.

We translate chi sau as 'sticking hand'.

- Adam

[3step]

touching hands is an exchange of skill. tre can be varying levels of intensity, from freindly to hostile.

[tparkerkfo]

hello Mantis Friends,

I hope one day to investigate this art a little more, but there are not to many Mantis people in my area. Anyways, what is your purpose in chi sau? I realize you stick and work sensitivity, but can you elaborate? Do you use a specifc pattern or platform? What are you trying to accomplish when sticking with your opponent

In wing chun, we use it as a drill to train reflexes. The main idea is to try to penetrate while going forward. We don't stick for the sake of sticking, but rather stick to find an opening. I like the analogy of sticky rice rather than glue. We use three main hands to stick, but other wing chun lineages have different methods. Some take it to extremes and use it to fight, and others only as a sensitivity drill. Most seem to be in the middle.

Thanks for any info.
Tom
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STARCRAFT-2 REPLAYS

[TaoBoy]

Tom,

We use sticking hands to 'learn' about our opponent. The contact gives us the information about how s/he is rooted to the ground, where their energy is centred and where attacks are coming from. A lot can be learned from that one touch. Once we sense a movement or attack we then react. We may strike, uproot or even disconnect. So, in this respect, chi sau is used to gain some advantage in the conflict. We are now not using only our eyes to see what is happening.

Contact is not permanent, we stick as long as we need to in order to 'learn' what to do next. For example, if we sense a weak bridge we will plough straight through and attack the head. If we sense strength, we will circle around and attack from a different angle.

To train this method we use jongs (partner work) to increase our sensitivity. These jongs start as drills to learn how to keep contact during movement, then how to feel where your opponent is going, what they are doing. Then we move to sensing and reacting to attacks. Finally it becomes more free-form and we use the skills in what would be best described as a sparring scenario - two practitioners testing each others sensitivity by trying to hit each other.

Hope that answers your question.

- Adam

[3step]

well said.

[desertwingchun2]

Tao Boy - thanks for the input. It sounds as if chi sao is similar. In your system where is the focus of the bridge?? Is it more wrist or forearm or is there any distinction?

[tparkerkfo]

Hi taoBoy,

Thanks for the info. It sounds similar to our chi sau, though I would imagine that are a lot of differences. Do you use a specific drill when you touch hands, or is it completly free form?

In wing chun, a specific pattern is used while we work on specifics. Then latter it is moved in to a free form manner. Is this similar?

In Wing Chun we work primarily in the forward direction. We are not concerned with hands that go sideways. If they do, we commit forwards to the body. Of course this is just a rule of thumb and not absolute. How about Mantis? Do they use more straight or circular movements? Will they abandon the center line if they fill there is a better option? A wing chun person who does Bak Mei will often throw in attacks from the side that is not wing chun at all. But it works well when used at the correct time.

Thanks for any info. Just trying to educate myself a little more.

Tom
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VAPORIZERS INFO

[TaoBoy]

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
Tao Boy - thanks for the input. It sounds as if chi sao is similar. In your system where is the focus of the bridge?? Is it more wrist or forearm or is there any distinction?

I tend to focus more on the forearm...that could just be the way I've interpreted/developed? I don't really focus on the wrist but more somewhere between the wrist and the middle of the forearm.

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Thanks for the info. It sounds similar to our chi sau, though I would imagine that are a lot of differences. Do you use a specific drill when you touch hands, or is it completly free form?.

We have specific drills that we practice both solo (to understand the shapes) and with partners (to understand the energy). We also do free-form chi sau at higher levels. In fact, last night we actually trained chi sau as a method of preventing the clinch. It was sort of a cross between chi sau and tai ji tui sau (push hand). There's actually a prominant wing chun teacher here in Australia (Rick Spain) that is combining the principles of chi sau with BJJ. It's interesting stuff and not too dissimilar to what we already do at my school.

In wing chun, a specific pattern is used while we work on specifics. Then latter it is moved in to a free form manner. Is this similar?

Yes. As I stated above, we train the shapes first, then the energy, then the application.

In Wing Chun we work primarily in the forward direction. We are not concerned with hands that go sideways. If they do, we commit forwards to the body. Of course this is just a rule of thumb and not absolute. How about Mantis? Do they use more straight or circular movements? Will they abandon the center line if they fill there is a better option? A wing chun person who does Bak Mei will often throw in attacks from the side that is not wing chun at all. But it works well when used at the correct time.

In SPM, we don't concern ourselves with any energy that is not aimed toward us. So, we too are not concerned with 'hands that go sideways'. In this - and many other respects - the theories of our styles are similar.

Our attacks are generally straight forward, we will use our hands/arms to create an opening to the head and then attack. If we cannot create an opening we will circle and then attack from a new angle. The head is always our prime target, if we cannot get at it we may attack the torso or limbs to create an opening. We sometimes use circular strikes also.

I really like the centreline theory but I think sometime wing chun practitioners can get a little trapped by it. It can be limiting if you don't think outside the square. I wouldn't say we 'abandon' the centreline, but we are more willing to move outside the strict rules of centreline theory. And that's not a criticism, I've seen how well the theory is used in wing chun and as I said previously - I think it is a great theory.

Peace,
Adam

[desertwingchun2]

Tao boy - thanks for the reply. In the system I train there is a difference between chi sao and kiu sao. Kiu Sao being the arm bridge and Chi Sao is more focused on the wrist. Again thanks for sharing.
-David

[Diamond Talons]

3Step & Taoboy are low level skill or hiding their level. Maybe taught wrong is a possibility too. Honest answer is no formal format, random, intent to hurt + full up power when a Hakka Tong Long player really has something. Not like WC at all. To own dangerous hands requires working in danger.

[Harry Gow]

Taoboy- you seem to have the similar fighting notions as many SPM guys!

If simple thing works then no need for endless theories.
Some I know just blast through and put complex hands out of the window. What works really depend on the individual.

[BearBear]

great and informative posts guys..

taoboy maybe the next magazine article ur school does can be on tong long toi sao! .. a biased suggestion

hehe



thanks

bearbear

[3step]

Diamond Talons,

You are right. There is no formal etiquette. My own veiw is that there is a difference between touching hands, playing hands & crossing hands.

An example of Touching hands would be if you are called on during class by your sifu to be used in demonstration.

Playing hands would be free form with a classmate.

crossing hands is as you described: dangerous.

again these are my own definitions.

[Diamond Talons]

Okay 3Step I thought you were a troll like bong. Good answers and clears up stuff.