Hung gar and wing chun

[Dark_Samurai]

Is there a relation between HUNG GAR and WING CHUN?

[Blackspear]

I doubt there is except for the fact that they both are kung fu styles. And of course some stances or what not

[tparkerkfo]

There is some that think so, others that don't. According to legends, there is a connection. Wing Chun was created by Ng Mui when she taught Yimm Wing Chun. Hung Gar was created By Jee Shim when he taight Hung Hei Goon. Gee Shim is also credited with introducing the Long Pole in Wing Chun. Both Ng Mui and jee Shim are said to be surving members of the shaolin temple.

These are legends and are not proven. Many people do beleive them and there is no reason not to. But we should be careful about saying they are true. There also may be some relation with the triads, but there is not much public info on this.

As far as the style goes, there is little that is similar. There are some similarites but I think these are not enough. The structure and power is very different. Each art relies on very different principles. Wing Chun seems closer to arts like Dragon, bak mei, southern mantis, and white crane than hung gar. All most all shaolin arts are very similar to each other. Choy Li Fut has similar characteristics to hung gar. Same with Northern Shaolin. It is easy to see the connections in the stances, techniques, and power. But wing chun does not fit the mold as nicely.

To sum up... we don't really know. It depends on your view point. I personally think the connection is very small if any
Tom
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[Geezer]

Tom wrote>

There is some that think so, others that don't. According to legends, there is a connection. Wing Chun was created by Ng Mui when she taught Yimm Wing Chun. Hung Gar was created By Jee Shim when he taight Hung Hei Goon. Gee Shim is also credited with introducing the Long Pole in Wing Chun. Both Ng Mui and jee Shim are said to be surving members of the shaolin temple.

You must not forget that Chi Sim/Gee Shim/Jee Sim is aslo credited with being the founder of "Chi Sim Weng Chun" and I think, don't quote me on this(yeah right) the Hung Ga Dragon Pole is very similiar to Chi Sims pole.

I'm one of those few that think there is a relationship between HG and WCK.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Sheldon,

Thanks for adding. The elders are related to many arts. Many more than they could physically create. Ng Mui is created with many arts to include Dragon style, Plum Blossum, wing chun, and a couple others. Gee Shim is credited with a few as well, but I am not to familair with those. Perhaps Gee Shim has a direct conection with Gee Shim wing chun as the legend states. but I myself, am not convinced that Gee Shim wing chun is really wing chun related. But that is me.

The long pole forms all have similar points. The Wing Chun and the Hung Gar pole forms are similar and use similar methods. The pole form in Hung Gar is said to be developed from a famous fighter who converted the techniques from spear forms. The same techniques can be found in other styles as well. I don't know any thing about Gee Shim weapons, and little about the other stuff so I can not comment.

For those that do think there is a relation, I would love to hear what, other than legend, they feel links the two arts?

Tom
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[TenTigers]

There is definately a relation. Look at the opening to Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen (Tiger?Crane set) it completely maps out all the major hand techniques seen in wing chun. The snake and crane techniques as well. Tan, Gong, Fook, Bong,Kwun, all appear in these sets. As does the yee ji kim yeung ma-at least in Tang Fung branch. Lop-sao,phon-sao,jow-sao, all mainstays of both arts. Hak-Fu Jow is seen throughout both arts and is broken down into jams, kwun-sao, gong-sao, etc.depending on angle and usage. I study both arts, and many of my teachers also have. Alan Lee, whom I have studied wing chun from, and will continue with, has always shown me corralations between these arts. He has also studied Hung-Ga as well. People who don't see the similarities between these arts need to look deeper into their systems. Outward appearance to beginners are completely different once you really get into the meat of the systems.

[Blackspear]

Ten Tigers ,

I understand your point but please note that we are all human beings and are limited to our body movements so. dont get caught up in names and moves no matter what it is there is always similarities even hung gar and Goju Ryu Karate have similarities.

So the reason I say they are not related is because of fighting theory , philosophy and other notes because of course body movement will be similar no matter what style so please dont be so harsh to say that if someone does not agree means they are beginners for everyone in their own way is a beginner.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello TenTigers,

Your correct in that there appears to be some similarities between wing chun and hung gar. Tiger and crane seem to show many techniques. However, I would ask you about the applications. is beauty looking inthe mirror really Tan Sau. Apply both and see. The cross wind sways the willow is not in wing chun. Wing Chun does not arc as in the begining sections of Fu Hok.

Lets look at the stances. Wing Chun does not have any of the many stances found in hung gar except maybe the YJKYM. Every Shaolin art has the horse, bow and arrow, cat, twisted, etc stances. Not wing chun. Yes there is YJKYM. But are they the same? The iron wire form was added later to hung gar and that seems to be the basis of that stance.

A dolphin and a shark have many things in common, yet they are very distinct. I beleive both art drew from similar sources indirectly. I also think they independantly arrived at the same conclusions. I see many similarties in boxing and fencing, but does that mean they too are related?

What about the source of power and the fahts used? Very different. Wing chun derives its power from the knees and elbows. Hung Gar uses stance and the waist. Ging is very differnt. If they were related, there would be much more incommon with them. However, we do see much greater similarities to the hakka arts like southern mantis, bak mei, leung Ying, etc. Are to beleive all these arts also are related to hung gar?

I do believe you can see similarities, but I don't think that means they ARE connected. But... maybe they are.

Tom
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[TenTigers]

hmmm, as far as usage is, there are more than one application to a movement and many interpetations. Hung-Ga and Wing Chun are not technique oriented, but concept oriented. The techniques are extracted, expanded upon, and extrapolated to form deeper and deeper technique. Wing Chun power derived from the elbows and knees? Hmmm, not the Wing Chun I learned. We use whole body integration power, waist and stance pretty much the same way you use body integration in Moi Fa Kuen in Hung-Ga. Don't you utilize the shift and the rat-step? Tan-dar can be pretty much the same as 'pook jong catching tiger'shift into the tan-POW! And the Yee Ji Kim Yeung Ma is in ALL the Tang-Fung forms, not just the wire. The horse and cat are seen in the Wing Chun pole set as well.

[Golden Arms]

From what I understand, at some point in the distant past, the Hung lineage taught the Wing Chun Lineage the Pole, and in exchange the Hung Lineage learned the Butterfly Knives (Cant recall 100% though) and the wing chun system was integrated into the hung system for the most part. They both use many common moves just slightly differently, but in the end its all open to your personal interpretation of the movements anyway right? Ie: bong sau, pak sau, biu sau, etc. Just my $.02, you dont have to take my word for it.

[desertwingchun2]

Ten Tigers - You are right on the money my friend. Please e-mail me so we can share some kung fu
-David

[churn-ging]

So ten tigers, would you say that wing chun and hung gar compliment each other?

I'm asking cause I always thought that hung gar used more tension in their techniques were as wing chun used more of a relaxed force in theirs. Keep in mind though, I don't know anything about hung gar.

[once ronin]

its takes a person who understands both hung gar and wing chun to answer this.

but id you look at a photo of one who bong sao in wing chun and one who bong sao in hung gar. you would say the hands are the sames. but the powers of use is different can be explained by people who have practiced and understand both arts.

both have the same roots but have branched out to what you see today.

[illusionfist]

An issue in this is kim yeung ma, and i'm not seeing how this works because the kim yeung ma in Wing Chun is not like Hung Gar's kim yeung ma. Depending on the lineage of Wing Chun, the back leans back a little bit, which is different from how Hung Gar's structure is. Also depending on the lineage, the feet are straighter, more like baht fun ma than Hung Gar's kim yeung ma.

In Hung Gar, kim yeung ma is used more for internal cultivation while Wing Chun's retains a fighting focus. Both of these perspectives present structural differences that set them apart in usage.

Blackspear brings up a good point about the amount of movements we have. Although we could do the same moves on a shape level, the specific focus of each art is gonna change how that move feels upon issuance. The total difference between the two is the training of the kiu sau, usage of ma, and ging.

No doubt whole body integration plays a key role in both arts, but i would like to see how somebody can compare the paan ging from hung gar and wing chun and say they feel the same. There is just no way. Wing Chun's structure and frame doesn't allow for that same kind of paan ging that is indicative of Hung Gar.

I've never understood this comparison and it comes up quite a bit. Shapes can sometimes overlap into different arts, but its the arts take on power and its issuance that sets them apart from the rest. Even conceptual and theoretical stuff can overlap, but once again the ging is the defining factor. The common thing that i see when this argument comes up is shape, and thats just not the way to compare things. All the examples that were presented were based on shape and not the specific power that is indicative of each art. The only exception is kim yeung ma because the shape can drastically change its usage and internal capability.

So with that being said, if somebody can actually compare power based stuff, internals, etc, i would be more inclined to agree with this comparison. To date i have not felt, seen, or heard anything that would make me think otherwise.

Peace

[Geezer]

Tom Wrote>

What about the source of power and the fahts used? Very different. Wing chun derives its power from the knees and elbows. Hung Gar uses stance and the waist. Ging is very differnt. If they were related, there would be much more incommon with them.

From what I understand in WCK you start learning about structure as soon as you start playing SLT. It comes from the the whole body not just your knees and elbows, what happened to your hips.??

Tentigers Wrote>

The techniques are extracted, expanded upon, and extrapolated to form deeper and deeper technique. Wing Chun power derived from the elbows and knees? Hmmm, not the Wing Chun I learned. We use whole body integration power, waist and stance pretty much the same way you use body integration in Moi Fa Kuen in Hung-Ga.

Tom Wrote>

A dolphin and a shark have many things in common, yet they are very distinct.

I think there's only one thing they have in common, a Shark is a Fish and the Dolphin is a Mammal.