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Thread: Endurance Training Not Weight Lifting

  1. #1
    Sam Guest

    Endurance Training Not Weight Lifting

    When stengthening the external body the internal ie; breathing and endurance should be balanced. If conventional body building is used the result could hinder your flexability and striking power. That type of development is good for lifting and tearing stength but hinders striking. To enhance internal energy in your strikes the external body must be completely relaxed as in a pitcher throwing a 90 mile an hour fastball. If your muscles are overly developed and your fast twitch muscles contract to easily and for to long your internal energy will get caught inside those muscles and will possibly cramp or fatigue. Going back to the example of the pitcher he is so relaxed on his delivery that his body falls forward. The same concept should apply to a strike which should be fast and expansive till the moment of contact. This is not to say you can't use weighted materials to enhance tendon and ligament strength. At they discribe the different rings, jars, poles and other strength enhancing devices. The idea is to internally enhance your external power for optimum strength and fexability. Also research Joseph Greenstien the Mighty Atom. His book the Spiritual Journey of Joseph L. Greenstien is very enlightening.

  2. #2
    nospam Guest
    I disagree.

    Although you state 'could hinder' you then go on to say it 'hinders striking'. This is where I disagree. I both bodybuild and do the you mentioned in the beginning of your post, strive for balance. If you ensure you stretch out the muscles and continue with smart training practises..nothing but positives all around.

    I highly recommend progressive resistive weight training. It alone can lead to a life of wellness if combined with a total (balanced) attitude and practise.

  3. #3
    Sam Guest
    Nospam, I agree to disagree. My main point is if your style is balanced with internal and external training then you should be training in the techniques and concepts of the style. This shouldn't take long to master about 20 years to life. If you find time to train in modern weight training program and it enhances your training thats great. My problem is that the trend now is to cut out traditional practice and replace it with modern weight training, jogging, and areobic practice. This again is fine if you are doing an eclectic system. If you are doing an internal/external traditional style then the quality training should be within the forms and techniques of your system. Thats a life time goal to accomplish.

    [This message has been edited by Sam (edited 04-20-2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Sam (edited 04-23-2000).]

  4. #4
    HuangKaiVun Guest
    Different folks for different strokes.

    For me, solo set training with and without weapons fulfills all my needs . . . and the girls agree.

  5. #5
    nospam Guest
    I also disagree that you agree that you and I agree on some of the disagrees...??


    Hey Sam, its not your problem. Its theirs. And if they don't have a problem with it, then I would think you shouldn't either. Think of the time weight training as a form of cross-training. Besides, there's some (who shall remain nameless) around these Boards that actually mix TKD with kung fu!? heh they are the ones with a *BIG* problem!

    [This message has been edited by nospam (edited 04-21-2000).]

  6. #6
    RFM Guest
    I have to agree to nospam on this one. I also train with weights, run, and do the classical fu (forms are on my list). If you weight train properly, you'll stretch. I stretch between sets (this may tend to make the workout time longer, but I if I am serious about my training, I do what I must.). I have not lost any flexibility as result of my training.

    Also, my take on some the traditional training methods of old is simply this. New equipment, modern times, same results! Whether chose to pump iron, or hold jars of sand - the results are the same. Weight resistance is weight resistance. There real difference is only if your are training using external methods or internal ( another topic altogether).

    As a modern warrior (US Army) I must train a specific way. My kung fu ehances that training, and I would be an idiot if I didn't also recognize that my kung fu has helped my physical training (army).

    We don't have to give up the old ways of training. But there are some alternatives that will give us the same results. Tools are tools, its the person who uses them that makes the difference.


    From One Thing, Know Ten Thousand.

  7. #7
    Sam Guest
    Lam Sang, Yip Man, Chen Fake, Chen Man Ching, never did a bench press. Nuff said!

  8. #8
    Sihing73 Guest

    While I prefer to spend my time in training Wing Chun as I have a limited amount of time, I think that dismissing Weight Training as an exercise is a bit shortsighted. As to stating that certain past masters never did any weight training I would ask you; what exactly is the difference between weight resistance training and training with a heavy do or a heavy pole? Don't the pole and knife forms serve as a type of resistence training and thus as a kind of weight training, albeit specific to the style?

    Past masters were known to train using improvised weight equipment. There are numerous examples to show that some type of resistence training was practiced. Some lifted boulders, some weighed themselves down with rocks and such while practicing stance work etc. In the Leung Ting System of Wing Tsun or wingtsun I can't keep track of all the changes [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] there is an exercise where one will attach a flexible strap to ones leg and train by pulling the leg downwards against the resistence.

    In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with training with weights if one is so inclined. One needs to use a little forethought and insure you are training the proper muscles. Weight training, done properly, does not hinder flexibility or speed. If you disagree that is fine you are welcome to your opinion. However, I guess all those Olympic athletes and pro sports players are being misled by using weights to supplement their skills. Perhaps we should call them and tell them that weights will slow them down as it obviously has made the world of track and field much slower than many years ago. Of course, you could argue that better nutrition and even drugs has affected the sports world as well. But, the thing is that anything that helps you to achieve your goals is worth doing. If you choose not to use weights that is fine. However, if someone else decides to lift then that is okay also. If you have specific points to debate about weights then bring them on and we can discuss it further. I feel it is a matter of choice and neither way is necessarily superior to the other. However, if I had only a limited time to train, which I do, and needed to develope some more power in a short time, I would most likely use weights as the results can be achieved more quickly than some traditional methods. Weight traning is not limited to bodybuilding.



  9. #9
    Sam Guest
    Dave, you are stating my point exactly the past masters did use weight resistance training and endurance training and got results unrivaled today by modern weight lifting practitioners. Their methods were done not to develope big mucsles or physiques but a resistance training for internal and external tendon ligament strengthening. I also reinerate that if someone wants to weight lift and body build and it works for them more power to them (no pun intended). What I'm concerned about is the growing trend to change the old ways for modern weight lifting methods. True Kung Fu is fast being lost and maybe thats the way it should be.

  10. #10
    nospam Guest

    I hear what you're saying, Sam. And as mentioned by others, modern times, modern methods. I'm sure 'tradition' would be different if they had the science we do today. There is a fine line between tradition and ceremony.

    For instance, kung fu garb...most people today think they need to dress in 'traditional' Chinese clothing to immulate traditional 'kung fu', this can be related to karate gi's as well. That is what they wore then. Today, t-shirts (maybe nice ones with logos), sweat pants or trousers specifically designed for martial arts (extra space in the crotch), and more importantly...sneakers!, will do.

    Does wearing the traditional Chinese garb make for better kung fu? Do you think our martial ancestors thought so? I doubt it. For competition and demonstration, getting dressed-up in expected digs adds to the flavour, but not to the jing or essence of one's martial ability. So, wearing clothes is more ceremony in my mind.

    Modern sports science and research is growing by leaps and bounds. Its an amazing area to read and to develop one's traning regimine by! For instance..'as a martial artist, you need to develop the same type of motor units as a 100 meter sprinter if you want to have the fastest, most powerful kicks possible. You therefore want to develop your force output, or anaerobic capacity.

    To increase your force output, you need to use, develop and recruit your fast twitch, Type II capacity. This does not occur through extended aerobic activity. In fact, extended aerobic activity decreases anaerobic potential.

    To develop kicks that will knock your sparring opponent backward, you need to moderate your aerobic training and specifically develop the high intensity, anaerobic system.

    You need some aerobic capacity, that is certain. But the ability to end a street fight in a few seconds or even last several rounds in sparring does not require an ability to run five miles.

    Instead, you should perform some form of aerobic training for 20 minutes in duration, 3 to 4 times per week, at approximately 70% of your maximum heart rate (220 minus your age). Then, with the time that you may have previously spent in endurance training, train your high-intensity, powerful energy system.

    One way to do this is with resistance training in the form of squats or lunges. To develop maximum force and power, you will want to cycle through a training plan that leads you to eventually performing sets with a high load (weight) and few repetitions. This type of training will develop the explosiveness of your kicks, the type that ends a street fight in a matter of seconds.

    Or, if you are a tournament fighter and need the ability to perform several rounds, you will want to develop your local muscular endurance (LME). To do this with resistance training, you go to the other extreme than what was described for developing power. For LME, use very light weights and perform many repetitions, perhaps 20 to 25. This will develop your ability to deliver successive kicks in a tournament format.'

    by Christopher D. Hess, SMAC'

    There is much to learn and more that can be incorporated into a training program of the modern day warrior or athlete. I'm sure in time to come, and as new science is added to compliment (or even replace) old science, somewhere, sometime, it too will be referred to as traditional.

    I incorporate modern day 'sprinter' exercises with my students. The results are great...and in less time than what it might normally be learned- and I'm talking years.
    Hopefully, every generation will have something to add that will enhance (not detract from) their system. And this doesn't mean reinventing or doing major over-hauls to the point that '[t]rue Kung Fu is fast being lost and maybe thats the way it should be.'

    'True kung fu' to me is the end result- Ability. If 2 generations after me, practitioners of my lineage train differently, but still enable the essence of our system's ability (based more on principles than training methodologies), then the path might have changed, but the destination has not.

  11. #11
    Sam Guest
    I am still waiting for all these modern masters to come close to the old masters. Where is the next Lam Sang, Bruce Lee, Yip Man, Wong Fei Hung, Chen Fake, Chen Man Ching, and so on and so on. They may be out there but I'll bet my bottom dollar they didn't get there from progressive weight lifting, jogging, or aerobics ie; (Richard Simmons). By the way in my youth I was a Bodybuilder and trainer and have met Mr Olympia champions and power lifting champions. I was a third degree blackbelt 200lb plus when I met my 135lb 5'4" Sigung who taught me something about true power by controling me like a child. Don't think it was just me because I've seen him do the same to numerous others bigger than I. My Sifu also does the same with only traditional training which is very rare and torturous to do.

    P.S. I included Bruce Lee because he is an exception to the rule but I would argue that his true training that gave him greatness was never revealed to the public or his students.

    [This message has been edited by Sam (edited 04-22-2000).]

  12. #12
    Self-Thinking Follower Guest
    I never knew Lam-Sang, Yip-Man or the other legends of Kung-fu, nor did I live with them for any length of time. So all I can do is speak for the systems they passed down. I believe weight training exsisted in all classical systems, Just look at the Brass rings, Iron or Bamboo arm-rolling bars, the Jars- progressively filled with greater weight, and yes dumbells used in Shuai- Chiao, or shaped like giant pad locks used in Go-Cho-kune (5 ancestors) and lets not forget the pulley also used in various styles like the Choy lei Fat wooden dummy. Oh!, and one more, the internal (?) stylists used heavy Iron Balls to spin around, does Fu style Bagua not have this? In any case weight training has exsisted in all combat training past and present! You can argue as to what form, but it did. Now as for arts dying? perhaps its because those in the know hold on to it like cash stuffed in their mattress and when they do wish to pass it on, its too late. If anything else is killing the arts, its people who dont put their fat *** into training hard or following the training method to its completion and succeding in aquiring skill. These are the same people who instead collect forms, techniques and even systems and STILL look under every rock for the MAGIC, be it internal Power, deadly death touch or Astral projection.

  13. #13
    RFM Guest
    One trend of thought we seem to have here is that big muscles mean strenght. Bulk a sign of strength.

    As a lifter, I train for strength. I prefer tone not size. There are plenty of articles in muscle mags, written by serious weight trainer who criticize the hulks. There are three ways to lift, (1) size (2) strength (3) for both.

    Bulk does not mean strength. Not all bodybuilders lift for strength, they simply want bulk, etc, etc, etc....

    Lost my train of thought, sorry guys.


    From One Thing, Know Ten Thousand.

  14. #14
    Sam Guest
    Self thinking follower, if you "thought" for a second and read my posts you will see that I do believe in the traditional weight endurance training to a point but have a problem with modern bodybuilding, running, and aerobics as a replacement for traditional methods. I even stated that if you can make the modern methods work thats great even though I have yet to see any that come close to the old masters. As far as seeing or living with the masters I have been around a few. Seen some amazing things and talked to many who witnessed much more. As far as a fat a** and being trained you'd better speak for yourself. I do agree you have to stick with your system and do the training thats within your style. If you put 100% you wont have time for anything else.

    [This message has been edited by Sam (edited 04-24-2000).]

  15. #15
    Sihing73 Guest
    Hi Sam,

    One thing to definietly consider when comparing the "old" masters with those of today is what constraints ones society and lifestyle place on them. I think it safe to say that most past masters were of an aggrerian society and farmers. As such they were doubtless in better shape than most of us as they WORKED for a living. Kind of like the early pioneers in our own USA. Think about it, an early woodsman had to be in great shape just to survive. He got that way by living not by specific exercises. I think another thing to consider is that many past masters devoted the majority of thier time to TRAINING. I mean, if I could spend 8-12 hours a day training I could be good no matter what style I practiced. I think that old traditional methods are fine but I think we must also consider possible improvements thanks to modern science.

    One of my favorite examples has always been Rocky 4 where good old Sly goes to Russia to train. Sly uses a more "traditional" approach and uses equipment found around the farm to train. While Dolph (bad guy [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] ) has the most modern methods available. In the end it was the human will that decided the victor. Kind of an interesting thing here, no matter how you train you need to have the proper mindet and force of will to excel. Of course, tradional methods will helpt to develope this but then again so will proper weight training. Both require self discipline.



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