Punching Power - Genetics vs. Learned Ability

[CD Lee]

Have you guys ever wondered how much genetics and inherent physical leverage play in the ability of a person to deliver a very hard strike?

You must have noticed and observed over the years that certain people can naturaly punch much harder than others, and that there seems to be a gradation of power that people posses in throwing a strike.

I wonder from some of you experienced guys if you have looked at this aspect of power. A new guy comes to the Kwoon, and can already hit very hard. Is this because he lines up naturally, or is there a muscular relexive action that promotes great speed with mass, or he may have natural intent to penetrate? It is very intesting to me.

What really puzzles me is professional boxers at the world class level, say top 10 fighters. They have all trained for many years, are all very skilled, and naturally talented. And they seem to use the same mechanics for power. However, there are some that just seem to be able to deliver crushing KO power in one shot, while others can hit the same way (it appears)but it does not KO most boxers without a good combination.

Can some people never actually develop true striking power with KO ability?

[Water Dragon]

Probably timing. Timing plays a lot bigger role in knockouts than power.

[CD Lee]

WD - I agree timing play a great role, but what kind are you speaking of? There is muscular timing in a persons body, where the chain reaction of muscle and tendon start moving, and of course the timing of a shot when the guy is vulnerable.

[Water Dragon]

Timing as in timing your punch.

[HuangKaiVun]

I'd say more genetics than training.

My own punch will never be that powerful because I'm too small. An untrained big guy can punch much harder than I can.

Fortunately, a punch is the least used of my weapons when it comes to fighting.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


This is an intersting topic.


I believe a fair ammount of things come into play when talking about punching power/ability.

People who have better genetics than others, and are natural athletes, will have advantage but Kung Fu is not about muscle power and its training can help one develop their own frame/attributes to their limits. All it takes is hard work. Yet we must realize that life is not fair and there will always be people more gifted than us. The bigger person will always have the upper hand. When I say bigger I do not mean over weight.

Certainly if two people are learning the same art and both master its principles then who has the most body mass will have the most power. This of course depends on (as I said) if both develop equally which would include structure, relaxation root etc..

Other elements can aid in ones punching power which would be distance, timing, speed etc.. I think one area of training that can indeed further develop your release of power is the ammount of Yi (intent) you place in your methods. Powerful intent combined with good skill should be plenty to help you hit hard enough to defend yourself.


Regards,

[Walter Joyce]

On a somewhat related note. I remember when those kicking shields first came out that measured the force of your kicks and gave and electronic read-out. Interestingly enough, when a martial arts mag tested out a half-dozen or so of the ranked fighters at that time, the person who scored the highest force reading was also the smallest.

Does this translate into the punching question asked? Maybe not, but it is related. And interesting, to me anyway, at the time.

[cagey_vet]

i used to get SO frustrated watching guys who just had
'IT'... that natural ability to move well, punch well, or
whatever else well... much more so than my own abilities
after training fairly consistently for more than 10 years
in Hsing-i Land. sometimes i would see someone train
for just a few years, and their abilities were (at least to
me at the time) outstanding in comparison.

i digress....

some body types are more easily suited for these strange
tasks that the internal arts demand...
i am tall and lean. i believe that the bandwidth for my
frequency is tighter than say someone who is shorter
and perhaps thicker. this would require my alignment to
be much more accurate and fitting to the situation then
someone who has limbs more naturally placed within the
vectoring requirements of precise movement.
basically there is less room for error in an inappropriately
massed (ectomorphic) person of height, and not width.
my shoulders are wide in comparison to my waist, knees
and feet.

my apparent gawkiness introduces a sort of harmonic
disturbance to the 'waveform' of jing (or even peng) so
even a SLIGHT misalignment in the body mechanic causes
everything to go bad.

if one vector is shifted incorrectly, the rest fall suit and its
often difficult correcting 'on the fly'.

BUT as i move along in the arts, my punches are more powerful
and more fluid as time goes by, even though i am getting older.
so i realize that i progress at the pace my body sets, and not
someone elses. there are internal tasks i am well suited for,
but that is outside the scope of this discussion.

hope this wasnt too esoteric for y'all.

[CD Lee]

Very interesting points all. I know in weight lifting dynamics, that they way people individual tendons and joints work, some people have much greater leverage on certain motions with no more actual muscle, and can lift a lot more than others. However, in a different motion, they can also be weaker than the person they just out-lifted in a different motion. So physics and natural leverage also play a part.

I had a buddy in college who was 6'4, 275 lbs, and he was insanely stronger than myself when we would wrestle and mess around. He could pick me up like a rag doll, literally, and toss me to a fro, hold me in the air etc. I felt like a leaf. I was 160 at that time, but could bench press 280 lbs free weight. My buddy wanted to be strong at weights too, and worked hard, and could only bench press like 185 for a max! Now, I had better leverage on that motion, but in no way was I even remotely as functionally strong as this guy. He could military press twice as much as me, although he had never lifted weights before, and I had done so for many years.

I guess I just want enough power that I can KO 'most' people or daze them with one shot, although I in no way am stupid enough to expect to win with one shot.

[CD Lee]

Cagey-Vet - Hey big guy, don't worry too much about ectomorphic tendencies or builds. There have been some absolutely incredibly devestating punchers in boxing that were ectomorphic in one way or another and taller than their peers. Rafael Ruelas (have not idea how he hit so hard), Mark Breeland (Have no idea how he even could throw a single punch without falling down) and Tommy Hearns come to mind.

Also in the tennis world, there are some very skinny guys and gals that have mind boggling power and timing but are very skinny and definately ectomorphs.

I am actually a mix between an ectomorph and mesomorph. Kind of weird, but worked out great for a lot of different sports. While having more muscle than normal people, I could never really increase the mass past a certain point. I always envied the pure mesomorph. I know one, and he won bodybuilding tournaments after only three years of training. Anyways, I played baseball when we were in sixth grade, and I swear to you, this guy had 'incredible' muscle even then, with shape, size, veins, and very strong. Sweet justice, he was as dumb as the typical sterotype on TV. Too funny!

[Ford Prefect]

Set-up, timing, etc. From my experience, the shot that hurts the most and will put you out, is the shot that you don't see coming. If I see it coming at the last second, I can be drilled in the head and be fine with it, but if I'm surprised, then I'm staggering. I think the guys with KO power are just better at setting up that shot, so the other guy doesn't see it.

[CD Lee]

I guess I am talking about the actual force applied in a punch vs. surprising someone with a punch they do not see. Of course, that will knock out almost anybody if they do not see it. But there have been guys like Ernie Shavers that could hit harder than almost anybody, but they could not always knock out people, because they saw the shots in time. People say that when Shavers hit you, it would shake every bone in your body, that he imparted a massive amount of force or energy into you with a punch.

[Mutant]

Neat discussion guys.

I believe that genetics plays an significant role in natural punching power and potential punching power. Ideally the practice of kung fu will increase ones natural base level to a much higher level, ideally beyond that of an opponent who is naturally bigger/stronger/faster. And i think diligent and correct practice can raise ones power level much higher, achieving this goal.

I think the basic components of a punch are coordination, geometry and physiology.

By coordination, I mean that basic coordiation between mind and body, controlling the overall timing of the technique against an opponent as well as coordination the muscles and energy release through the body, from root/legs, hips, back, arms & breathing, to deliver this force.

Also the natural geometry/proportions of our bodies that we are born with, being trained to optimum form. Some are born with proportions better suited to this, but optimizing ones form/structure make make up a huge difference.

And then the phyiology of our muscles/tendions/nervous systems. People are born with different muscle qualities. Some naturally have better fast-twitch muscles that deliver more explosive power. Of course fast-twitch muscles can be devoloped, but some have a natural advantage here and will ultimately be able to reach a higher level with the same given amount of training. Some may never reach knock-out level power with their muscle type, but there is more to the equation than muscles, in the realm of kung fu.

So we start with these basic variables that can all be improved upon to varying degrees. Given the same training regiment, someone with good natural coordination who has near-optimal proportions and good muscle quality will be able to reach a higher power level and punch harder than someone without such attributes. Of course one has to know how to land a powerful strike as well...

So its a good thing that there is also such a variable in work ethics, dedication and passion, because people who are naturally less gifted can surpass those who are, with lots of hard work, most of the time.

[Daredevil]

We shouldn't discount the mental aspect of it. Even some big guys just can't punch with real power because they don't have the mentality for it. Some time with a punching bag and some partner work with mitts will take of that.

Even though I think I've always had a pretty good mental approach to it, that kinda training lifted my punching power greatly. That refining initially happened when I was training Wing Tsun and spent a lot of time working on just that kinda stuff. Of course, now I train Bajiquan and Chen style Taijiquan and the jings are so very different.

Anyway, I think the most basic root for intent, as in the Internal arts, lies in this mentality.

[Walter Joyce]

"So its a good thing that there is also such a variable in work ethics, dedication and passion, because people who are naturally less gifted can surpass those who are, with lots of hard work, most of the time"

Might I suggest that this work ethic is also a genetic gift, perhaps the most important?