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@ WuJi,thanks for all the informations..u have a great knowledge.For me NCK is a new world and very fascinating.
@ Steeve,I learned my Hung Kuen in Hongkong not in the Philippines..I learned it from Sifu Mark Ho and still learn.(u never stop learning) but I know about Lao Kim and one of his students in Cebu mixes it with FMA..but Lao Kim didnt teach Hung Kuen..its clf and a village style...
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Sounds great.Originally Posted by Laukarbo
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How would you describe the Ngo Cho Kun monkey?
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as far as I know its mainly the footwork
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Laukardo
Lao Kim style was the dragon-Tiger style ...call Hong Cha
Johnny Chiuten and Rene navarro was his disciple in Phillipine
take a loook
http://www.beta-sigma.org/jc1.swf
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Evasive footwork, cruel hands (targeting weak spots), full of tricks, fluidity, attack/counter attack that uses body momentums - sometimes used as sacrificed counter techniques. Suitable for people with a smaller frame.
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yeah I seen this site before,very interesting.
I know personally a few students of Lao Kim and even learned one of the forms..they said its village hung gar..hong chia is mandarin same meaning...
Tiger dragon style is more possible and it has more a CLF feel than hung fist..
Even the dynamic tension kiu sao was performed with 2 fingers ...
this seems to be a rare style actually..but not really hung fist
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Hi, sorry I came in a bit late into this conversation.
Xia, the Monkey description here may interest you.
A preamble: I am from the Malaysian, Chee Kim Thong Ngo Cho School. Have been practising it for > 30 yrs.
Speaking from our lineage's perspective, lets see if I can describe our art in a way that is less confusing.
NCK consists of 5 styles, sort of melded into 1. The 5 styles each contribute their respective characteristics, which include the physical movements/strokes, the footwork, power generation, internal Qi development & deployment.
for e.g.
White Crane, BaiHe whipping, explosive power, fluid & fast arm
techniques, some footwork, mostly long &
mid-distance, with some close-in techniques.
Strikes are mostly with open palms, fingers and
phoenix-eye.
Monkey, HouQuan quick, tight footwork, tight,close-in defense &
attack, locks & takedown, a lot of quick sneaky
techniques. Hands are in 'monkey paw' (open
hand with thumb tucked in). Has superior use of
body-mechanics, allowing smaller frame persons
to take larger opponents. We have low squat
stances, a few tumbles and somesaults, but far
lesser than other monkeys styles I've seen.
TaiZu very hard linear style (hardly any circular
movements), using the forearms & hands as
knives. Lots of power chops and slices, and
spearhand thrusts. Emphasizes a very upright
and 'face front' posture with very tight & solid
defences and attack, mainly at middle-distance,
with some long and short techniques.
LuoHan Similar to TaiZu with a very bold, upfront
posture, but with powerful but more 'looser'(less
close-in) movements, both circular and linear;
and a different power generation system. Mid to
long distance.
More use of fists.
TatMo Does not contribute physically to the forms, but
contributes the breathing, meditative and Qi
development aspects, to complement that of the
above arts.
* note: 'long-distance' means distances between outstrecthed arms to kick-reach.
'mid' is between out-stretched arm to forearm length distance.
'short/close-in' is anything less than above.
For us there are 18 forms, starting with Sam Chien of course. In the forms, each of the 5 styles are blended in, so within the 18 forms, we don't have a Monkey or Crane form, they are Ngo Cho forms. But within the froms, with some strokes, you can tell quite clearly its from Crane or Monkey etc.. With other you can't. For e.g. our Sam Chien is about 75% Crane.
In addition to the 18 forms, our lineage also has Sam Chien for each of the 4 styles, ie: one for Monkey, Crane, TaiZu, LuoHan, which you get to learn when you're more senior.
So when you learn Ngo Cho, you learn Ngo Cho, and not Crane, TaiZu etc.... at least in the beginning. But having said that, as you get to master Ngo Cho, you also get to understand/learn the specific techniques of its component styles. Once you can do that, you can then 'manifest' a stroke, say a block, with the nuances of Crane, together with its power generation/Qi techniques. OR combine a Crane type strike with Monkey footwork.... this is when it gets really interesting! Learn Ngo Cho and get 4 styles for the price of one! But seriously, "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts".
Also, in our lineage, we emphasize a lot in the internal Qi development, as musch as (or more?) than the so called "internal martial arts".
We also emphasize a lot on 'sticking & listening' (like Wing Chun ChiSao), for profficiency with sensitivity with hand-to-hand contact. 'Hardening' and hand-conditioning' exercises are standard, and bruises on forearms are not uncommon during training.
For us, we neither call our style hard of soft, close-in or long distance, because we have it all. The 5(4) styles give a profficient Ngo Cho practicioneer many techniques to choose from, in application. For example, in an exercise/sparring our techniques may start of soft, but power thru with a hard attack, then change to soft again... Part of the mastering the art is to be able to switch fluidly between the different power-systems/techniques, hard or soft, close-in, mid, long distance.
We also have this thing called "heavy hands", which means being able to deploy power to the arms so that its difficult for an opponent to deflect or block an attack. And this "heaviness" can be used irregardless of whether the stroke is hard or soft, at long, mid, short distances. To develop this we do a lot of 2 man exercises, where we use the 'sticking & listening' with 'heavy hands'. And this is not just 'push-hands' or 'roll-hands', but with fairly powerful push/pulls, strikes and blocks; where if an opponent makes a mistake, he may be 'bounced' 2 or 3 steps backwards. The 'heaviness' and sensitivity training is intricately linked with the 'internal' aspects of the art.
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Thanks for the information!
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Greetings again,
I am just complimenting information that senior Boh gave.
Most of the lineages have sticky hand training for close range applications although it varies.
This "stickiness" training is sometimes attributed to a 6th "ancestor", a female "hian ni" (xuan nu) figure that emphasizes to the soft energy. Some lineages acknowledge this master and practice the soft art. Some practice it without having a clear description about it. Some don't recognize it.
In our lineage, the "soft" art is practiced and given during sticky hand/close quarter training. This is transmitted as the teacher sees how the students can perceive it. Like the Tat Mo ancestor, there is no specific forms for it and it is more of methods/ways than movements. It is very internal, but not as the northern internal families(Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua, etc.) interpret it. In our lineage, this is more of our "yin" energy for "listening" and "bridge making/crossing" while Tat Mo ancestor is more on the "Yang" energy for hard (attack) jin and iron shirt applications.
I know that Chee Kim Tong lineage practices it somehow, but I am not too familiar with their teaching methods. So, it is best for senior Boh to describe it.
In my opinion, NCK is more of a family of concepts than of a style. It is more of the synthesis of the cores of Fujian main arts. For example, (Ngo Cho) Ho Yang Kun is just a branch of the arts as how Sujo Chua Giok Beng synthesized it while Chee Kim Tong's lineage follows a different synthesis from another master.
Hence, there is a great variation and it is hard to describe what "Ngo Cho Kun" is. If you are familiar with the Canine world, it is like Jack Russell Terrier is more of a strain than a breed. We can recognize a Jack Russell Terrier individually, but it is hard to precisely describe it due to its variations (and differences in the ancestors).
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nTSjQBpnZDk
This form, Chong Hap Kun, is a compilation form when masters from different lineages met and synthesized a compulsory form for competition. It has a bit of flavor from different lineages. The performer is Xu Qinghui and his student surname Zhang. Since Xu is from Quanzhou, this performance has a Quanzhou flavor.
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hi,
Thanks for the perceptive comments by wu-ji. Since the issue of 'hian ni'/'xian nui' is brought up, here is an interesting anectdote as related by our Grandmaster Chee Kim Thong. It may be more legend than fact but is interesting nevertheless.
The 4 masters were discussing and 'touching hands', determining which strokes and techniques to incorporate into the Ngo Cho forms, a young lady passed by, observed their activities and giggled at them. The masters were obviously annoyed and enquired from the young lady what she found amusing. "Your techniques are all so hard, you should have some softer techniques!", she said. Of course this prompted the masters to invite her to show them, whereby she promptly overcame them. Shortly after, the young lady left, and the masters never found out her name or what style she represented, so they just refered to her as 'xian nui', which literally means "the lady in the blue dress". Realising this, the master incorporated the softer aspects into Ngo Chor. Hence she is attributed to be the mysterious 6th ancestor.
(My suspicion is that she is from the Wumei (NgMui - cantonese) school, but that's just my guess.)
But having said that, Grandmaster Chee did teach (only one?) Xian Nui form, and also of WuMei (where he learned from a different master).
Our lineage of Ngo Chor is from a master named Lim Yean who taught only 2 students, Grandmaster Chee and his (Lim Yean) grand daughter.
I'd like to add a few more comments on top of wu-ji's, "NCK is more of a family of concepts than of a style" as I beg to differ. I would like to think of it as a distinct style, as the its forms is different from those of its components styles. I think the NCK masters have done a wonderful job of integrating the different styles into one, so that they 'synergise' ie: so that techniques of one style leverages on the tehcniques of other styles, and the whole thing fits together seamlessly.
Also, the way we train, the exercises and so on are different from that, for e.g. practised by a (pure) Crane school. Yet it has been able to preserve the essence, in terms of core techniques both internal & external of the component styles. And once you gain more mastery of the style, can then diassemble and assemble the different components, mix and match and that makes it very interesting, both from a research/learning point of view as well as application! This gives the profficient NCK practioneer a very wide range of techniques to choose from, or he may decide to focus his training into one direction (like Crane for e.g.) and adapt/inteprete the other strokes into a 'Crane Way' of execution. Hence, that's why "the whole is truly greater than the sums of its parts".
Having said all this, NCK is not hard to learn, but may be hard to master! But you will pick up some key concepts fairly early on, like "stable stances", "heavy hands", "listening". That's how its taught in our lineage anyway.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZASjKEQloKk
Hopefully, to clarify, this' a video posted by Eric Ling. He visited us in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and we were exchanging techniques. The first part was Eric demonstrating his Whooping Crane applications, from 0:36 onwards I was explaining some applications from Sam Chien, and from 1:30 sticky hands (done with 'heavy hands' to uproot the opponents stance).
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=55J56LQWHxg
This clip shows a short Hian Ni/Xian Nui form, performed by Yap Cheng Hai in QuanQou Nan Shou Lin Conference 2004(?).
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Senior Boh,
Are you Yap Boh Heong, by any chance?
What I meant as "family" is a synthesis, much eloquently described, then summarized by you with the Gestalt notion of "the whole is larger than the sum of its parts."
That's a very nice demonstration of you. From my eyes, it looks like you were using hianni energy with crane hands/distance. Nice bridging/controlling and sinking.
Thank you for the explanations.
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yes, I am Yap Boh Heong.
you have extensive knowledge on ngo cho.
But I dont see any info on your public profile, so have we met? ;-)
you can contact me via private msg/mail.
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Thank you. I still have much to learn. I just wish to share information to the interested gentlemen (and ladies) here.
PS: Private message sent.
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