Judo Vs. BJJ

[ShaolinTiger00]

Cipher,

you seem like an open minded guy. great. put this in the back of your mind then. make a clear distinction between martial arts and self defense. night and day.

The street is gangs, weapons, suprise, chaos, and many other horrible things you could never ever "train" for.

Self Defense by Charles Nelson (Nelson)

Do or Die by A. Drexel Biddle (Paladin Press)

Get Tough by W.E. Fairbairn (Paladin Press)

Kill Or Get Killed by Rex Applegate (Paladin Press)

The First Commando Knives by Yeaton & Applegate (Phillips Publications)

Cold Steel by John Styers (Paladin Press)

The Close Combat Files of Col. Rex Applegate by Applegate & Melson (Paladin Press)

Combat Conditioning (Paladin Press)

Hand-To-Hand Combat (400) (Desert Publications)

U.S. Marine Corps, Hand-To-Hand Combat (401) (Desert Publications)

Street Smarts by "Jim Grover" (Paladin Press)

www.ghca.org

www.cruciblesecurity.com

check these links. these people have treated me like gold and have shown me the truth about self defense. It will make you giggle the next time you see a martial art school advertising the same words.

[Cipher]

ShaolinTiger00,

Great, thanks for the links and info. I will check out those sites when I go home tonight.

I think one big thing about self defense on the street is mentality. Like being aware of who is around you and were you are or were your going etc. etc.

[SevenStar]

"IMHO the most overlooked aspect of the entire martial arts is the “middle area” the clinch, slugging, fumbling fight for control. I think this is what makes san shou so exciting and a good combat art. Sanshou addressing this in both grappling and striking situation. Typical MMA see muay thai striking and BJJ grappling. But the middle is where th control happens and without control what is the point of engaging?"

I don't think MMA overlook the clinch at all. the muay thai plumb, wrestling, bjj and judo takedowns happen in the clinch or right before. you may not see alot of it in competitions because nobody wants to stay in a clinch, but it's definitely addressed.

[ShaolinTiger00]

because nobody wants to stay in a clinch because they don't know what to do! They treat this phase as "transitional" at best. granted it is "the middle range" and transition makes sense but the skill at this gap is overlooked IMO.

standup grapplers do address it as you mentioned. muaythai - "eh" they understand head control, but then attack and backout to regroup.

I see your point but there is certainly a gap between the striking and groundwork games in muaythai/bjj camps.


that my opinion for what its worth.

[omegapoint]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Sorry sir, but Maeda had already left Japan before this school was even founded. Maeda was just an old school judo man. (At that time "judo" was practically a jujitsu that was better organized and trained more randori.)
The BJJ that we see today is Helio's version of the art. The art that was taught to Carlos Sr. was very Japanese in nature. Helio was a sickly child and could not perform many of the techniques. His limitations turned to technical superiority in the skills he could perform. groundwork.

I may be mistaken. If you guys are saying that Kosen concentrates on groundwork, then I'm saying Maeda (who was also a pro-wrestler) was a Kosen specialist. Maybe it wasn't called Kosen, but from you guys' descriptions, BJJ and Kosen sound synonymous. What Helio changed were the techs that needed size and strength to execute. I don't think he was sickly, just small. He sure has lived a long healthy life for being a immunocompromised type. BTW, don't try and tell me GJJ history. You ain't got a clue...

For example:

those same yodan have LAUNCHED me thru the air.

What is a yodan. I thought maybe it was a typo, but I see you probably meant Yondan, or 4th degree BBs. For some reason, if that's what/who you are talking about, I'd have to question your story's validity.

I excell in one area, I am humbled in another. I work to make the whole better.

You excel according to whom? You? Not very objective...

[TaoBoy]

Omegapoint, I think you're being a little harsh. Sure ST's word choice may not have been the best...but..?

ST, thanks for the links - viewing now.

[LeeCasebolt]

"because nobody wants to stay in a clinch because they don't know what to do! They treat this phase as "transitional" at best. granted it is "the middle range" and transition makes sense but the skill at this gap is overlooked IMO."

Actually, the clinch is (IMO) rapidly becoming the place fights are won and lost in MMA. Many of the top fighters, in particular the better converted wrestlers (Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, and Jens Pulver spring to mind) do a lot of damage by virtue of being able to control this range. Greco-roman clinch work and "dirty boxing", lots of holding and hitting, and switching between punches, knees, and elbows are all characteristic techniques of the better clinch fighters.

You don't see this level of sophistication from the BJJ/Muay thai uber alles camps, but it's becoming a higher priority among the elites.

Lee

[KnightSabre]

You guys should check out Matt Thorntons tapes on the clinch.
Go to http://www.straighblastgym.com he has probably the best clinch stuff available.He also trains with Randy Couture who is well known for his excellent clinch fighting.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Maybe it wasn't called Kosen, but from you guys' descriptions, BJJ and Kosen sound synonymous. What Helio changed were the techs that needed size and strength to execute. I don't think he was sickly, just small.

First off, Maeda had absolutely nothing to do with The Kosen school of judo. The twain never crossed paths, the timelines will provide evidence. Maeda was just a hard core jujitsu/judo man whom you called a "pro wrestler" was actually a "professional grappler" -there was no acting going on.

Why was Maeda so good on the ground? - Because in a real fight between two combatants that is where he wanted to be, being the skilled grappler. Why would he want to excahnge blows or battle it out standing when he clearly had the training advantage?match over match proved to him that the easiest way to win these matches was to get them to the ground and submit them. That's reality.

Helio Gracie was a Sickly CHILD, to quote Monty Python.. "He got better".



I'd have to question your story's validity.
You'll have to excuse me, for I am a bear of little brain sometimes.
WTF are you talking about? I was commenting that while I am skilled at matwork far above my judo rank, I am easily dominated by these yondan -(4th degree BB) in standing randori.. as could be imagined.



You excel according to whom? You? Not very objective...

According to these same BB's and many others at my club and surrounding clubs that I visit. People on this message board know me, I can give out my name, club, instructors, USJF# and points to anyone who questions my words.

[Merryprankster]

Shaolin,

If you'd like to come down to Lloyd's this weekend, lemme know.

We can make it an ALL DAY affair (well, mostly)

James

[lkfmdc]

If you are training in a San Shou program linked back to the original military San Shou then you are learning how to clinch to BOTH strike and grapple. Wrestling will teach you to clinch to takedown, not to strike and not to defend against the strike, and wrestlers of the collegiate/free style do things that in a submission and striking venue would be BAD BAD BAD (poor student of mine who is excellent college wrestler and is getting schooled in grappling by newbies who know how to choke and neck crank LOL)

Muay Thai severly limits the "grappling" and if you study it with a coach who isnt' thinking MMA, things he can show you that work in a strict MT fight will get you killed in MMA.

My personal favorite to cross train with San Shou is Russian Sambo, and in fact during period of cooperation between China and Soviet Union it was a common event to have these two cross trained (Soviet San Shou team). Sambo is very wrestling based, but with arm and leg locks, good sambo guys with military background also CHOKE...

But if real San Shou or good Sambo isn't around you, I'd strongly suggest you buy Erik Paulson's stuff, most intergrated and most like San Shou of ANYTHING I have ever seen

[Cipher]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
If you are training in a San Shou program linked back to the original military San Shou then you are learning how to clinch to BOTH strike and grapple. Wrestling will teach you to clinch to takedown, not to strike and not to defend against the strike, and wrestlers of the collegiate/free style do things that in a submission and striking venue would be BAD BAD BAD (poor student of mine who is excellent college wrestler and is getting schooled in grappling by newbies who know how to choke and neck crank LOL)

Muay Thai severly limits the "grappling" and if you study it with a coach who isnt' thinking MMA, things he can show you that work in a strict MT fight will get you killed in MMA.

My personal favorite to cross train with San Shou is Russian Sambo, and in fact during period of cooperation between China and Soviet Union it was a common event to have these two cross trained (Soviet San Shou team). Sambo is very wrestling based, but with arm and leg locks, good sambo guys with military background also CHOKE...

But if real San Shou or good Sambo isn't around you, I'd strongly suggest you buy Erik Paulson's stuff, most intergrated and most like San Shou of ANYTHING I have ever seen

What kind of stuff from Erik Paulson? Books and video's? Any specific book or video to look for? Thanks.