How do YOU know??

[Nick Lo]

WushuChik- Do you honestly think i would answer a question like that coming from a person like you? I've been reading these boards for a few winters now and i have yet to see anything remotely martial come from you. You started this whole thread and yet i'm very sure you yourself know little about kung fu at all. With the amount of time that you are on these forums, how is it that you have time to train? Then again, it must be hard trying to do kung fu in a trailer with 15 kids running around with Bubba sitting on the couch sipping 40's and watching Oprah.

You and Huangy are probably cut of the same cloth in that you most likely study from videos too. Although in your case Bubba hogs the TV all the time, so you are infront of the CRT all day instead of actually training yourself in something other than breeding.

You have the mistaken notion that i'm claiming some kind of skill. All i'm saying is that there are people on this board that dont deserve the time of day due to their fraudulent and nefarious actions.

Aloha and Mahalo,
Nick

[HuangKaiVun]

So if you have no skill, then your insistence that I have "fraudelent and nefarious" kung fu is totally BULLCRAP.

Just as I thought.

Nick, I REALLY WANT TO FIGHT YOU.

Why won't you let me test my kung fu against you AND your sifu?

[wushu chik]

Hey Nick!

Thanks for totally dodging my questions, because you have NO answer! I am sure it's fun for you to sit there and try to stir the pot with your big mouth and narrow minded comments! You come acrossed to me, as well as MANY others as a narrow minded little teenager, that enjoys trying to torment others with his schoolyard bully antics. Why don't you just come out and say who YOU'VE studied with? Or are you afraid we'll find out that you're as bad as you claim everyone else to be?

You can sit there and sling your bullsh!t accusations at me all day. The fact remains that I DO know kung fu, and that you're just annoyed because you can't get to me! Let me guess, you're just one of those guys with a big mouth and small pen!s that has to compensate for his manlyhood by picking on others!! Yeah, I do think that's it!!

~Wen~

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by Nick Lo
WushuChik- Do you honestly think i would answer a question like that coming from a person like you? I've been reading these boards for a few winters now and i have yet to see anything remotely martial come from you. You started this whole thread and yet i'm very sure you yourself know little about kung fu at all. With the amount of time that you are on these forums, how is it that you have time to train? Then again, it must be hard trying to do kung fu in a trailer with 15 kids running around with Bubba sitting on the couch sipping 40's and watching Oprah.

Hmm, explain to me when YOU yourself has said anything REMOTELY matial? I don't recall any time at all that you've done so! All you do is come on here, pretend to be some extremely knowledgable person, and bash people. I am sure that since you're such a young person, mommy has the computer blocked, and when she forgets to put it up, you come on here and "play" with the adults!

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
So if you have no skill, then your insistence that I have "fraudelent and nefarious" kung fu is totally BULLCRAP.

Just as I thought.

Nick, I REALLY WANT TO FIGHT YOU.

Why won't you let me test my kung fu against you AND your sifu?

"Nick, I REALLY DO WANT TO FIGHT YOU." You are really starting to get on my nerves. You've become way to laughable to even make sense now Huang. Why don't you go fight yourself, because you are the ONLY ONE anymore that seems to be taking you seriously. You've blown it, honestly! You're no better than the rest that sit there and throw crap, and wanna fight everyone. You are NO BETTER than Nick himself.


NOW, BOTH OF YOU GET THE HELL OFF MY THREAD!!

Have a nice day!

~Wen~

[HuangKaiVun]

No more from me, wushuchik.

I'm just looking to TEST my Line 4 against him.

From the sounds of it, Nick will get his chance to face me after all.

[wushu chik]

HA HA HA, Huang, you keep thinking that. If you really think he's gonna go there, you're a fool. Can't you see when someone's playing you?? You're easier to string than a fiddle!! BWAHA HA HA HA HAHAHA HAH HA HA AHAA!!

~Wen~

[GeneChing]

...now on to Nick Lo, which seems strangely appropriate for this "how do YOU know??" thread. People are always down on video students and I've always thought that was silly. You learn your skills from wherever - from videos, books, wild animals, bar fights - skills are skills. Claiming lineage might be an issue, but being a video student, man, if you own a vcr, you had better be a video student, just like if you can read, you had better do so. Use every tool available to walk the warrior road. Which leads me to my question, my dear Shaolin brothers and sisters, should we ban Nick Lo?

[count]

Masters or teachers love when people attempt to learn from video's. It becomes a joke because they can readily identify who has had the experience and who is all talk. Others can easily see from their body movement or their words alone who is just faking it. I've never seen even the most honest teacher not change things when the camcorder was on. Commercial video's are worse. Things are deliberately changed so the teacher can recognize where it came from. Without the teachers corrections it's nothing more than an empty shell.

The only way to know for sure is to stay with a teacher long enough to learn the program and see others come and go and learn too. Besides, things are taught in layers and good teachers do change things over the years. Does that make it wrong because you use and open palm and later it becomes a cranes beak or something? Even than, a teacher will teach each individual what is appropriate for their particular size, shape, temperament, strength or weakness. If a teacher tells you the same thing works for you exactly as it does for the 6'4" 240lb guy in line next to you, I would head for the door.

Without long term, hands on training with the same system you will never know if you got the goods.

Within a system there are different branches with different interpretations or understandings of what the master taught. But somewhere in a "real" system there has to be some uniformity to make it recognizable across generations and from location to location. I think it is difficult to believe you are learning the "authentic" system. But if you can handle yourself and your body is healthy and strong does it matter? Or are we talking about passing it on to others?

PS: I'd like to know which version of Tan Tui you guys are talking about? I know 2 first hand and a third from a book/video. Line 4 is different in all 3.

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...now on to Nick Lo, which seems strangely appropriate for this "how do YOU know??" thread. People are always down on video students and I've always thought that was silly. You learn your skills from wherever - from videos, books, wild animals, bar fights - skills are skills. Claiming lineage might be an issue, but being a video student, man, if you own a vcr, you had better be a video student, just like if you can read, you had better do so. Use every tool available to walk the warrior road. Which leads me to my question, my dear Shaolin brothers and sisters, should we ban Nick Lo?

I don't think being a vid/book student is a BAD thing. But I do think that the person that is learning their stuff from vids/books should at least get their basics from SOMEONE that has martial arts experience. Even if it's Joe Blow down the block that has been in TKD for 11 years....get the basics from him and then learn your stuff that you'd like to learn. While I agree that it's not the BEST way to learn, you take what you can get!

I know personally, with my life...if it weren't for vids, i'd not remember HALF of what i've been taught! Why's that? Well, especially in this day in age, with so much to do, so much to remember, only so many hours in the day, etc....it's hard for people to retain as much as before. There's so much to learn, and so much to remember, that unless you learn for 8 hours a day in a LOT of cases, you're not gonna retain EVERY SINGLE DETAIL that you've been told to. For this type of situation, videos and books are a GREAT reference tool...so you can go back and say "OH YEAH, I forgot this...or that....".

Books are not the greatest way to learn a style, because you can't see exactly what they're trying to show you, such as angles, proper postures, positioning, etc. But, for history and knowledge, there's nothing better.

Gene~ When It comes to Nick Lo. I too am personally getting tired of seeing him slam EVERYONE, and not give any reference of WHY. But, I know that that if he is banned, he'll just come back as a different nickname and redo what he's been doing. So, I'd rather know who is doing it, then sit there and try to guess which person this one new nickname is!

Originally posted by Count
Masters or teachers love when people attempt to learn from video's. It becomes a joke because they can readily identify who has had the experience and who is all talk. Others can easily see from their body movement or their words alone who is just faking it. I've never seen even the most honest teacher not change things when the camcorder was on. Commercial video's are worse. Things are deliberately changed so the teacher can recognize where it came from. Without the teachers corrections it's nothing more than an empty shell.

Who's to say that these people don't already have MA experience and just want to learn something different? I know a TON of people on these here boards that go to a school, have a Sifu, and STILL have Sifu Lams vids in their closets!! Again, it's a great way to go back over something if you're not sure about it! And, if you know what you're looking for, you can look past all the marks in the vids! You just gotta know how to read them. I don't agree that without a teachers correction, it's an empty shell. For this reason! If a person is REALLY truly interested in learning something, but can't get to a school, for reasons of location, lack of transportation, etc....at least they're doing SOMETHING. WHO CARES. I'll agree that those that learn off vids and open a school, and then teach OTHERS their mistakes or bad habits is WRONG....but if they use it for their own personal use, I see nothing wrong with it.

Originally posted by Count
The only way to know for sure is to stay with a teacher long enough to learn the program and see others come and go and learn too. Besides, things are taught in layers and good teachers do change things over the years. Does that make it wrong because you use and open palm and later it becomes a cranes beak or something? Even than, a teacher will teach each individual what is appropriate for their particular size, shape, temperament, strength or weakness. If a teacher tells you the same thing works for you exactly as it does for the 6'4" 240lb guy in line next to you, I would head for the door.

OK, now here's a question for you. Say your Sifu gets into a car accident and is paralyzed of dies. What do you do then?? He's the ONLY Sifu that knows that art in your area? You move? Change jobs, etc.? NOT LIKELY. You do the next best thing if you're really intereseted and willing to continue learning. You order the vids and finish it up. Seriously, this is something that people need to think about!

Most Sifus, especially old school Sifus, will show you a line one or two times, then walk away and come back a while later to see if you've gotten it. So how can you tell me that they don't teach everyone the same thing? YOU have to learn what works for YOU. It's not your teachers place to teach everyone something different because they're a different build or a different shape, or a different weight/height...you get the point.

It's up to YOU, as a student who knows hs own body, to change it to how it feel comfortable to you. Otherwise, your Sifu be spending so much time trying to teach everyone something else that will adapt to their body needs that they'll be teaching constantly, and nobody will learn much at all! Just my opinion!!

Anyway, the reason for starting this WHOLE thread was because I don't know how many times I've heard that "My style is 100% correct, and yours isn't". Well, my opinion is...how do you know? Things have been so changed over the past many years, that you can't be 100% sure that it's the same as when it was made!!

~Wen~

[count]

Originally posted by wushu chik
I don't think being a vid/book student is a BAD thing. But I do think that the person that is learning their stuff from vids/books should at least get their basics from SOMEONE that has martial arts experience. Even if it's Joe Blow down the block that has been in TKD for 11 years....get the basics from him and then learn your stuff that you'd like to learn. While I agree that it's not the BEST way to learn, you take what you can get!

You can not compare the basics of TKD to those of bagua as an example that I am qualified to speak. Totally different mindsets and methods and to use one as foundation for another would do more harm than good.

I wouldn't disagree about the value of video as a training tool but as a learning tool it would be impossible to cover more than the surface in a 2 hour presentation. And than without that sifu to make the adjustments that you would need to practice you would only be reinforcing a weak foundation. If you don't believe me just ask your video if your spine alignment is correct and you have the right balance point.

OK, now here's a question for you. Say your Sifu gets into a car accident and is paralyzed of dies. What do you do then?? He's the ONLY Sifu that knows that art in your area? You move? Change jobs, etc.? NOT LIKELY. You do the next best thing if you're really intereseted and willing to continue learning. You order the vids and finish it up. Seriously, this is something that people need to think about!

The lesson of impermanence is the hardest one. Having been around only long enough to get a small fraction of what my sifu teaches I would be dependent on the senior students that have more. I know which ones have been shown what and who to ask. It's my responsibility to learn what I can while I can and pass it on when I am ready. It's the same for my teacher and for my student. That is the nature of the circle of knowledge.

Most Sifus, especially old school Sifus, will show you a line one or two times, then walk away and come back a while later to see if you've gotten it. So how can you tell me that they don't teach everyone the same thing? YOU have to learn what works for YOU. It's not your teachers place to teach everyone something different because they're a different build or a different shape, or a different weight/height...you get the point.

In a traditional school, and I am generalizing here, as you did, the sifu would not show anyone in the first place. It is the senior students who teach and the sifu will make the proper adjustments for you after. Learning a movement doesn't mean it will work until you make the movement your own. Any one can show you a movement or a form. A good teacher can identify weakness in body structure and make the necessary corrections. Tell you ways to practice that will make it work for you. How do you know if it is right? The teacher will give you permission to teach it to someone else.

Anyway, the reason for starting this WHOLE thread was because I don't know how many times I've heard that "My style is 100% correct, and yours isn't". Well, my opinion is...how do you know? Things have been so changed over the past many years, that you can't be 100% sure that it's the same as when it was made!!

I agree!!! The answer is anyone who says that doesn't know.


*disclaimer: The use of camcorders as a learning tool are invaluable. But even that can't replace your teachers watchful eye.

[David Jamieson]

Gene~

Don't ban Nik Lowe, he helps us to learn restraint and exercises our temperaments.



I've been vid training for more than a year now, mind you, i've had several martial arts teachers and spent the last 7 or so years with a cma teacher of high caliber.

I agree, foundations and basics, which are the roots of any martial art are difficult to grasp from video. But, if you spend at leats 3 or so years with a decent martial arts teacher, you can likely get into books and videos.

You'll find out if you "know" when you have the unfortunate experience of applying what you have learned for real. Otherwise, training, in anything is good for your body and mind and I would encourage anyone to go forward by whatever means they can to understand what it is to have Kungfu.

peace

[wushu chik]

Originally posted by count


You can not compare the basics of TKD to those of bagua as an example that I am qualified to speak. Totally different mindsets and methods and to use one as foundation for another would do more harm than good.

Yeah, i'm gonna get flamed for this one....but here I go! I disagree with your first sentence "You can not compare the basics of TKD to those of bagua........". I am sorry, but a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick...the mechanics are the same. The principles are the same. The difference however is how the punch of kick is thrown, the positioning of the hand or foot, etc. It seems to me that the only reason people get ANGRY and offended about vid students is because they are taking money away from pockets of teachers that want the cashflow.

If a person's self disciplined enough to be able to do this, more power to them. If a person can't get to a school because there's NONE around them, more power too them. If a person is to learn from a video because they want a PARTICULAR style, and there's nothing like that for 100's of miles.....more power to them. It's all in how you look at it!

It's the future, we're never gonna stop it...it's just gonna get worse. I am sure most of you FEAR the internet classroom, where people are learning from their COMPUTER screens, from cyber Sifus and stuff. Well peeps, hate to break it to ya, but we're almost to that point!!!!!

Originally posted by Kung Lek
Don't ban Nik Lowe, he helps us to learn restraint and exercises our temperaments.

I have to disagree. He's just a moron. He doesn't help us learn anything, laugh at stupid little people

~Wen~

[Brad]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, the reason for starting this WHOLE thread was because I don't know how many times I've heard that "My style is 100% correct, and yours isn't". Well, my opinion is...how do you know? Things have been so changed over the past many years, that you can't be 100% sure that it's the same as when it was made!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree!!! The answer is anyone who says that doesn't know.

I agree too!
When I look at the Bajiquan of Su Yu Zhang, Tony Chen, and An Tian Rong I see lots of similarities but also lots of little differences too where each of their branches have made their own little changes over the years. If a system stays completely static throughout history then eventually it's going to be outdated and die.

[count]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
I agree, foundations and basics, which are the roots of any martial art are difficult to grasp from video. But, if you spend at leats 3 or so years with a decent martial arts teacher, you can likely get into books and videos.

Maybe with your experience and 3 years with the teacher you could. I have been with my teacher over 20 and tried without success to learn a more advanced form from a tape. CMA is too three dimensional for me to "get it" looking at a video. For me it requires hard contact and feedback from a teacher. But that's just me.

Originally posted by wushu chik

Yeah, i'm gonna get flamed for this one....but here I go! I disagree with your first sentence "You can not compare the basics of TKD to those of bagua........". I am sorry, but a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick...the mechanics are the same. The principles are the same. The difference however is how the punch of kick is thrown, the positioning of the hand or foot, etc. It seems to me that the only reason people get ANGRY and offended about vid students is because they are taking money away from pockets of teachers that want the cashflow.

No, I won't flame you for your comment. I assure you, there are major differences between the two. But if you have never studied both you couldn't know.

Honestly, I do not get offended or angry about what mistakes people make in martial arts choices or how well they understand what they have seen. It's their own karma to either get it or not. You can get lessons in the strangest ways if you're smart enough. Even if I were their teacher I could only point the way. If video's work for you, "more power to ya". But my post wasn't supposed to incite an argument with you about the merits, or lack of, in learning from videos. It's only my opinion that it really can't be done.

Originally posted by wushu chik
I have to disagree. He's just a moron. He doesn't help us learn anything, laugh at stupid little people

~Wen~

No, I'm gonna agree with Kung Lek on this one. His opinions are valid and are his own. I gotta laugh when he points out some of the things people say and how seriously they take themselves. People who over-react to a screen name deserve what they get. I agree with you that he could be more forthcoming with real information but in the meantime don't take it to heart. I know he insulted you, but he could be wrong. That's his karma. Yours is what you make of it.

[wushu chik]

No, I'm gonna agree with Kung Lek on this one. His opinions are valid and are his own. I gotta laugh when he points out some of the things people say and how seriously they take themselves. People who over-react to a screen name deserve what they get. I agree with you that he could be more forthcoming with real information but in the meantime don't take it to heart. I know he insulted you, but he could be wrong. That's his karma. Yours is what you make of it.

He didn't insult me. He doesn't even annoy me. I think he's funny actually....but he does get to some people. I personally think he's more of a kid than most the kids on here!

~Wen~