Kuen Kuit

[t_niehoff]

Hi Dave,

Dave McKinnon wrote:

I was recently introduced to the idea that some Kuen Kuit have a very exact meaning that translate to exact actions when dealing with an opponent, rather then being general principles or guidelines to follow.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

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IMHO the one doesn't exclude the other, i.e., that WCK *principles* can be expressed very specifically or generally (one can use a specific, concrete example to infer a more general idea or extract a specific application from a general idea). TN

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Additionally it seems that other groups of Kuen Kuit discuss one overriding principle. (Dave)

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I think that there are different "types" of kuit, some to help us train, some to understand WCK's method or approach, etc. With regard to those focusing on WCK's approach, IMO they are essentially describing aspects or different perspectives of the same thing, or to put it another way, like shining a narrow beam of light on an elephant and catching glimpses of its different "parts" although what we are actually trying to see is the whole elephant. TN

Terence

[MustafaUcozler]

Hello everyone,

I have run into some "Kuen Kuits" that I need a
translation for. Unfortunately I do not have the
Chinese characters and my cantonese skills are pretty
much non-existent, which makes things certainly
extremely difficult.

Can anyone here still give it a shot?

1. Fung Hung Bit Jun
2. Jone Gan Biu Bong He
3. Wang Lan Dai Cheung Jim Sin Tau

Thanks!

Mustafa

[John Weiland]

Hi Mustafa,

So the curious can see and the knowledgeable can come with corrections and comments. Romanization of Chinese sounds is an art, so consider this a little better than a pure swag.

Originally posted by MustafaUcozler
Hello everyone,

I have run into some "Kuen Kuits" that I need a
translation for. Unfortunately I do not have the
Chinese characters and my cantonese skills are pretty
much non-existent, which makes things certainly
extremely difficult.

Can anyone here still give it a shot?

1. Fung Hung Bit Jun

Must enter when there's an opening. Or as Ken said: Fung hung jik chung. Ben writes "jeck" instead of jik.

2. Jone Gan Biu Bong He

This one says essentially, when your opponent has your
centerline, then perform bil sau, then bong sau.

3. Wang Lan Dai Cheung Jim Sin Tau

This translates to when you lan sao, you go down with the opposite hand, and not up, then you get the advantage.

Thanks!

Mustafa

Regards,

[datou]

Hi Mustafa!

To answer your question about the Kuen Kuit, why don't you just ask Sifu Schafer? Maybe he just forgot to type the translation on his website! Or you can ask any 12 SG and above who attended the special tutorial. Maybe they will tell you.
I can only tell you that (nothing against Mr. Weiland) this explanation is not the right one.

[yuanfen]

Originally posted by datou
Hi Mustafa!

To answer your question about the Kuen Kuit, why don't you just ask Sifu Schafer? Maybe he just forgot to type the translation on his website! Or you can ask any 12 SG and above who attended the special tutorial. Maybe they will tell you.
I can only tell you that (nothing against Mr. Weiland) this explanation is not the right one.

-------------------
Hi Datou- Mr Weiland gave an answer to a publicly asked question.
If you think that the explanation is not the right one- why not
share your version or atleast give the basis for your opinion?
Would love to hear your version.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by datou

I can only tell you that (nothing against Mr. Weiland) this explanation is not the right one.

What is the "right one" then?

In working with pinyin or Yale transcriptions, it isn't clear to me that certainty in translation would be possible since Catonese dialect pronounciations are not consistent.

If you could post the Chinese, that would certainly clear up the confusion on my end, and then if you'd like, I could probably provide a closer translation.

Regards,

[datou]

Sorry, it was not an attack on you. This was only for Mustafa. He knows what my post means.
What I should have said is that this is not the answer HE is looking for. I normally don't post anything on forums, I just found his post amusing because I know where he got the "Kuen Kuit" from. My comments were only meant for Mustafa. Sorry guys!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by datou
Sorry, it was not an attack on you. This was only for Mustafa. He knows what my post means.
What I should have said is that this is not the answer HE is looking for. I normally don't post anything on forums, I just found his post amusing because I know where he got the "Kuen Kuit" from. My comments were only meant for Mustafa. Sorry guys!

Hi Datou,

I didn't feel slighted by your comments. I would like to hear what the actual kuen kuits mean, and if you have the Chinese, to have it in that form too.

If you look back at the archives, not too long ago, we shared several kuen kuits, and I would encourage others to do so as well.

Regards,

[CFT]

Hi,

There have been threads posted previously about the Wing Chun kuen kuit, but none of them ever really tried to explain what each one meant.

I know that there is no comprehensive list, but I include below the list from Rene's wingchunkuen website. I hope that people can distinguish the Chinese characters, but I'll try to add a phonetic translation; apologies for the atrocious "pin yin" - I'm not following any standard but my own - and even then I'll be inconsistent

I'm pretty new to Wing Chun, but I'm going to make an attempt to describe the meaning behind each point. I would REALLY like some feedback on whether understanding is right or not.


1. °ò²»Í£Áô
Bong but ting lau - Bong does not stay stay
I've read alot on this forum, and elsewhere, that the bong sau is a transitional structure and so one should not hold a bong sau for longer than necessary.

2. ”³Ò»ÒÆ„Ó
Dik yut yee dong - Once the enemy moves
This is just part of a complete phrases which goes along the lines of: "if the enemy moves, I have moved first". Similar to "I move later, but hit first".

3. ÖÐÐÄÒÑ¿Õ
Sum jung yee hung - mind/heart is empty
No distracting thoughts in the mind. No preconceived ideas or expectations. Not really sure about this one!

4. È_ÓÉÐÄ°l (ÊÖÓÉÐÄ°l)
Kuen yow sum faat - The fist srtikes from the heart/centre
Possible double meaning here. First is the obvious centre-line theory, second is that we should strike with intent.

5. ßBÏûŽ§´ò
Leen siu dai daar - Simultaneous block and attack/stike
The siu doesn't really mean block, more like diminish - this reinforces the idea of redirecting the opponents force rather than a direct block.

6. �íÁôÈ¥ËÍ
Loy lau hui soong - Detain what comes, escort what leaves
Can mean many things I think. I don't think that it necessarily means to trap an opponents hands, whether incoming or outgoing. For that matter, what about trapping legs? Don't want to get into the chasing hands scenario. I think this phrase could also mean maintaining the correct combat distance wherever yor opponent moves.

7. ˦ÊÖÖ±Ðn (·é˦ֱÐn)
Lut sau tsik chung - Upon loss of contact, strike ahead
Seems straight-forward, but I always have the feeling that it means more than just to go straight in (through the centre) upon loss of contact with the opponents arms/hands.

8. ÏÈ°lÖÆÈË
Seen faat tsay yun - strike first to subdue the enemy
Again it seems straight-forward to assume that if you can srtike first, make the strike count and subdue the enemy. And no, we're not talking about a one-kill strike here!

9. Òò•r¶ø¹¥
Yun se yee gung - Attack when the opportunity occurs
"Se" is time/conditions, so I think the phrase just means to attack at the appropriate time or when conditions are right.

The next 4 I have real problems with.

10. ÓÐÐδòÐÎ
Yau ying daa ying - if there is a shape, hit the shape
What is this shape? Does this refer to a visible pattern of behaviour in your enemy? e.g. they always use a certain parry/block/defence, they always dodge left/right, etc. So attack what is predictable behaviour.

11. ŸoÐδòÓ°
Mo ying daa ying- if there is no shape, hit the shadow
Even more confusing for me. What is the shadow - the enemy's attack/strike? So we just respond to their attacks and attack their strikes.

12. ÓÐÓ°ÀmÁô
Yau ying juk lau - if there is a shadow, keep detaining it
The enemy strikes, but don't let them recover to make more attacks. Detain them at the end of, or midway through, their strike.

13. ŸoÓ°ÆÆÖÐ
Mo ying por jung - No shadow, break/attack the centre
Seems a bit like a last resort to me, but goes to the heart of it. The enemy has no discernable patterns, his attacks are too fast to stop/detain or he doesn't attack at all, just defence. You have nothing to work with - he's not showing you how to defeat himeself - just strike through his centre.

14. ÒÔÊØžé¹¥
15. ÒÔ¹¥žéÊØ
Yee sau wai gung - Use defence as offence
Yee gung wai sau - Use offence as defence
Not going to say much about this, this is a well understood idea. However, it does "lay to rest" the myth that Wing Chun is an all out attacking art.


Phew!! There are some pretty "obvious" lessons in there and some very subtle/fundamental ones too. For me 10-14 is the hardest to grasp, and I would say that you would spend a lifetime trying to achieve the Zen-like 3, 4.

[yuanfen]

There are several different versions of the kuen kuit. Augustine Fong's out of print book which sold out rightawy in the 80s had
a fairly large collection.

IMO- a key to the understanding of the kuit is remebering that it is using the language of "pointing" to the truth and the road to discovery. A keen intuition is important. Can be misleading and
contradictory and confusing if read literally. With sharpened intuition they are very sugestive.

Off to an obligation- later if others have not made relevant comments by then- I will try to suggest some insights into some of them.

[CFT]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Off to an obligation- later if others have not made relevant comments by then- I will try to suggest some insights into some of them.

Look forward to your pearls of wisdom, and I'm not joking either!

[Gangsterfist]

Here goes some of Fong's work I found online. I found this while ago and thought it was cool so I bookmarked it in my web browser.

The thing is wing chun has a lot of maxims, sayings, concepts, and philosophies so remember good results come from hard work in training, not knowing a bunch of sayings. Some of this stuff is also based off morals, which have a chan budhist influence on as well.

Here is the link:

http://www.wingchun.org/txt/misc/kuenkuit.html

This is probably one of my favorites, it just kind of stuck to me when I first heard it.

Retain what comes in, send off what retreats. Rush in on loss of hand contact.

If an attack comes in, let it don't use force to stop it. Use structure. If your opponet starts to pull away, stick to them. If loss of contact happens establish a new bridge, rush in and make contact.

That can be applied to so many different things, including weapons.

Maybe that can shed some light in your direction.

[Phenix]

There have been threads posted previously about the Wing Chun kuen kuit, but none of them ever really tried to explain what each one meant. ------

Perhaps you dont understand? instead of otherwise?



I'm pretty new to Wing Chun, but I'm going to make an attempt to describe the meaning behind each point. I would REALLY like some feedback on whether understanding is right or not.--------


Great try. however, it is not neccesary to put others in fault position " none of them ever really....." since you also in learning stage. we all in learning stage.






2. “GˆêˆÚ“®
Dik yut yee dong - Once the enemy moves
This is just part of a complete phrases which goes along the lines of: "if the enemy moves, I have moved first". Similar to "I move later, but hit first".

3. ’†�S›ß‹ó
Sum jung yee hung - mind/heart is empty
No distracting thoughts in the mind. No preconceived ideas or expectations. Not really sure about this one!-------------




The 2 and 3 can not be seperated.
It said " when the oponent make a move, his/her balance is off"

This sentence is apply only to the enermy who practice stretch art.
where when strect to hit losing the Zhong.

Kuen kuit has what it is described part and also the part which was implied or understood.
and, kuen kuit is not a omni magic matra of one fits all.




5. ˜A�Á›æ‘Å
Leen siu dai daar - Simultaneous block and attack/stike
The siu doesn't really mean block, more like diminish - this reinforces the idea of redirecting the opponents force rather than a direct block.----------------



Here only present a concept without details. There are two level in this concept.

Until one understand sending is not streching , see through the physical body into the energy flow; this siu or consume is implement with angle and line shift-- a limb art.


when knowing the energy body flow, then siu become using his force to against him. or consume and attack in the "same" instant. a full range art.





8. �æá¢�§�l
Seen faat tsay yun - strike first to subdue the enemy
Again it seems straight-forward to assume that if you can srtike first, make the strike count and subdue the enemy. And no, we're not talking about a one-kill strike here! ---------


This kuit has a problem. it contradict the number 5 above.
WCK is a sending art. Thus, as saying in chinese --- it is similar to asnake. if one hit a snake with a stick. the snake will travel on the stick to attack one"

so, WCK will not strike first but that doesnt mean wck will not arive first similar to the snake using the stick as " a direct path" to attack the person holding that stick.

This sentence should be --- How Fatt Seen Tsay. Fatt is release not strike as hit. so, it should be "release later first to arrive .

if we remember, WCK is a sensing art, it sense the energy flow then release. Without the oponent commit or seduce him to commit, one will not commit to release.





13. –³‰e”j’†
Mo ying por jung - No shadow, break/attack the centre
Seems a bit like a last resort to me, but goes to the heart of it. The enemy has no discernable patterns, his attacks are too fast to stop/detain or he doesn't attack at all, just defence. You have nothing to work with - he's not showing you how to defeat himeself - just strike through his centre.----------



Without the capability of sending with crossbow analogy speedy short delay activation jing and taking others place. this cannot be done effectively. Limb only art will get into trouble when the advance fighter rush in. or he is waiting to read your pattern.

This is the teaching of Biu jee set or the section 3 and 4 of Yik Kam's SLT. It is not the last resort but to finished the match in one short.

Zhong here means balance. can be physical or mental.




[B]15. ˆÈ�Uˆ×Žç
Yee gung wai sau - Use offence as defence
Not going to say much about this, this is a well understood idea. However, it does "lay to rest" the myth that Wing Chun is an all out attacking art. --------


Without the sending type Speed jing, this can become a streching art. this will fall into the fault of 2 and 3.-------- the when the oponent make a move, his/her balance is off"



Kuen kuit, cannot be taken as omni magic matra.
it has to be understood with its implementation and skill level needed for implementation.

It is also a pattern of general old chinese way or evolution that 1, some reverse kuit was placing in kuit to act as seal to seal off the true meaning so the one who stolent the kuit will not beable to unseal it.
2, sometimes, kuit was expanded due to the expander has no idea about the core teaching. thus, it will mix with contradict phrases.
3, interpletation of the kuit depend greatly on the interpleter's attainment in skill. For the advance master can use the reverse as the forward. the looks wrong to be the proper.

We today dont know which is the case. So, a good understanding of the core philisophy and implementation of the art is needed.
It cannot be understood precisely without the above.


Just some thought

[Gangsterfist]

Hendrik

You speak chinese perhaps you can translate this one for me:

Guan Mo Leung Heung (The staff doesn't make two sounds)

Does that mean that the long pole should never strike twice? Does it mean that your techniques should not need to be applied twice? Does it mean don't hit the enemies weapon more than once, like if you were defanging the snake so to speak?

The thing is it probably means several things. Like Biu Jee, that also has several meanings deeper than thrusting fingers.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Hendrik

You speak chinese perhaps you can translate this one for me:

Guan Mo Leung Heung (The staff doesn't make two sounds)

Does that mean that the long pole should never strike twice? Does it mean that your techniques should not need to be applied twice? Does it mean don't hit the enemies weapon more than once, like if you were defanging the snake so to speak?

The thing is it probably means several things. Like Biu Jee, that also has several meanings deeper than thrusting fingers.

Rene,

Where is yourkuen kuit translation collection? Can't find in your site no more.


Gangsterfist,

It is not only depent on speaking chinese. as I try to mention above.

Honestly, you want sifu like Robert Chu who's expertise in pole to explain this.

For me, in my lineage, pole is not suppose to make sound. it coil and slips in..... I view it as what are we going to achive? not into deep thinking.