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Originally posted by Phenix
There have been threads posted previously about the Wing Chun kuen kuit, but none of them ever really tried to explain what each one meant. ------
Perhaps you dont understand? instead of otherwise?
Hendrik,
Thanks for the lengthy response, you've definitely made me think differently on some of the kuen kuit.
Any thoughts on 10 - 13?
What I meant in my original post was that as far as I was aware, no one had gone through a list of kuen kuit and explained/described what they meant. What lessons were to be learnt.
I agree that they are not omnipotent mantras, but they are in my opinion teaching aids which partly or even wholly encapsulate the Wing Chun philosophies.
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CFT,
Understood.
10 -12, get Rene in. I think he has that in his web before.
I told you #13 right? 
I agree that they are not omnipotent mantras, but they are in my opinion teaching aids which partly or even wholly encapsulate the Wing Chun philosophies.---------
The trouble comes with whether we think with chakra 1,2,3 or 5, 6, and 7.
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Originally posted by Phenix
I told you #13 right?
Whoops ... you're quite right. I did read it, honest !!
The trouble comes with whether we think with chakra 1,2,3 or 5, 6, and 7.
Doh!!! 
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On the pole not making more than one sound---
preferably no sound-one strike and its over. Sometimes-
you control the other weapon once and you slip in...
two sounds? You are begiining losing- after that you have lost.
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Originally posted by CFT
Doh!!!
That thought of revenge. That feeling of being feeling burn. That feeling of suddent heavy because we lost.... be cause we are conner due to our mistake or other's purposely manupulation. ...
Those are the 1 to 3 instinct.
Following that, we stay in stuffy, heavy, hot in our head.... we lock ourself in a rigid " I am feeling bad and you are going to pay... anger.... "
Not easy to aware of those feelings and not following it and not give one's authority to that....
Easy to say then get there.....
Thus, kuen kuit is difficult because there is a factor need to be look at that ----- what if those who wrote the kuit has already knows how to deal with the heavy, the hot, the darkness ---- appear dark and close in in our mind, no longer clear, we just want to do anything out of it........
Not easy at all.....
Chan is part of the story, how to decent from non-duality to duality and being there but not being there. It was said, it takes millions of kalpa... right? Joy?
Last edited by Phenix; 02-19-2004 at 11:22 AM.
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Chee-I have already commented on the pole and the sound..some additional comments on yours-may or may not be the same as others or may over lap.
1. 膀不停留
Bong but ting lau - Bong does not stay stay
I've read alot on this forum, and elsewhere, that the bong sau is a transitional structure and so one should not hold a bong sau for longer than necessary
((Ok but Careful- one needs to know when the bong has done it's job)
2. 敵一移動
Dik yut yee dong - Once the enemy moves
This is just part of a complete phrases which goes along the lines of: "if the enemy moves, I have moved first". Similar to "I move later, but hit first".
((Old as Sun Tsu- I arrive earlier. IF you know the line-attack as soon as the enmy shows slightest motion)
3. 中心已空
Sum jung yee hung - mind/heart is empty
No distracting thoughts in the mind. No preconceived ideas or expectations. Not really sure about this one!
((Not churning with emotion- watch everything. Madden to a Raider player going in-- watch for the pass. Watch for the run. Watch everything))
4. 萠由心發 (手由心發)
Kuen yow sum faat - The fist srtikes from the heart/centre
Possible double meaning here. First is the obvious centre-line theory, second is that we should strike with intent.
((Both. At the heart- the mechanics of both hands come together.
Heart is also a center of focussed intent and will))
5. 連消帶打
Leen siu dai daar - Simultaneous block and attack/stike
The siu doesn't really mean block, more like diminish - this reinforces the idea of redirecting the opponents force rather than a direct block.
((Also two handedness- one hand always helping the other))
6. 來留去送
Loy lau hui soong - Detain what comes, escort what leaves
Can mean many things I think. I don't think that it necessarily means to trap an opponents hands, whether incoming or outgoing. For that matter, what about trapping legs? Don't want to get into the chasing hands scenario. I think this phrase could also mean maintaining the correct combat distance wherever yor opponent moves.
((Control incoming energy-sendout your own))
7. 甩手直衝 (烽甩直衝)
Lut sau tsik chung - Upon loss of contact, strike ahead
Seems straight-forward, but I always have the feeling that it means more than just to go straight in (through the centre) upon loss of contact with the opponents arms/hands.
((Nature abhors a vacuum. STRIKE))
8. 先發制人
Seen faat tsay yun - strike first to subdue the enemy
Again it seems straight-forward to assume that if you can srtike first, make the strike count and subdue the enemy. And no, we're not talking about a one-kill strike here!
((WC is not just a counter punching art.When the opportunity is there-attack is the best defense))
9. 因時而攻
Yun se yee gung - Attack when the opportunity occurs
"Se" is time/conditions, so I think the phrase just means to attack at the appropriate time or when conditions are right.
((When you sense a line...attack))
The next 4 I have real problems with.
10. 有形打形
Yau ying daa ying - if there is a shape, hit the shape
What is this shape? Does this refer to a visible pattern of behaviour in your enemy? e.g. they always use a certain parry/block/defence, they always dodge left/right, etc. So attack what is predictable behaviour.
((The enemy as a ball of energy. If the timing is right forget about blocking etc- attack the center of the mass of ene
11. 無形打影
Mo ying daa ying- if there is no shape, hit the shadow
Even more confusing for me. What is the shadow - the enemy's attack/strike? So we just respond to their attacks and attack their strikes.
((((In a real fight things may be blurred at times-focus on the center of the blur))))
12. 有影續留
Yau ying juk lau - if there is a shadow, keep detaining it
The enemy strikes, but don't let them recover to make more attacks. Detain them at the end of, or midway through, their strike.
((Control- when contact is made))
13. 無影破中
Mo ying por jung - No shadow, break/attack the centre
Seems a bit like a last resort to me, but goes to the heart of it. The enemy has no discernable patterns, his attacks are too fast to stop/detain or he doesn't attack at all, just defence. You have nothing to work with - he's not showing you how to defeat himeself - just strike through his centre.
((Cut the Gordian knot- break into his structure with intent))
14. 以守為攻
15. 以攻為守
Yee sau wai gung - Use defence as offence
Yee gung wai sau - Use offence as defence
Not going to say much about this, this is a well understood idea. However, it does "lay to rest" the myth that Wing Chun is an all out attacking art.
((The defensive hand can alsobe the attacking hand-no rechambering needed.
Rather than waiting for defending- dont be one move behind))
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On the pole not making more than one sound---
preferably no sound-one strike and its over. Sometimes-
you control the other weapon once and you slip in...
two sounds? You are begiining losing- after that you have lost.
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Thanks joy, that is what I figured but have never had anyone explain it to me. I guess it could be applied to lots of things besides the long pole.
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About numbers 10-11-12-13 :
Substitute the word "body" for shape and the word "limb(s)" for shadow...
Then it becomes clear...IMO.
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Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
About numbers 10-11-12-13 :
Substitute the word "body" for shape and the word "limb(s)" for shadow...
Then it becomes clear...IMO.
You're right. That does make a lot more sense.
Regards,
- kj
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I look at 10 to 13 in the above as the descrition of dealing with 3 levels of attainment.
Level 1: Shape
10, Yau ying daa ying - if there is a shape, focus/strike out the shape
Shape is posture, in Cat Stance, TaiJi's Peng posture, Xing Yi's San Chai posture....... or BaiJong.
It is refer to dealing with a static/semi static structural level.
standing in Cat stance, the post itself will have its pro and cons. So, attack the center of the particula structure via weakness of that post, shape, or Jong with angle, lines... distance.... .
This called for detail analisis and understanding of various type of structure....
First level is about the physical structure, line time, line space, strenght.
Level 2: Shadow
11. Mo ying daa ying- if there is no shape, hit the shadow
12. Yau ying juk lau - if there is a shadow, keep detaining it
Shadow is the core motion. This refer to dealing with a dynamic motion type level.
When thing is in motion, the will have no constant shape or post, thus one deal with motion. One needs to know the core of the motion. Take a way the " main engine" of that motion.
This called for detail analisis and understanding of various type of major motion. Open, Close, Sink, rise with its combination and resultant force.
Second level is about the dynamic motion--- change, time and space is non-linear, momentum, acceralation, resultant force.
Level 3: No Shadow
13. Mo ying por jung - No shadow, break/attack the centre
No Shadow is enegy, beyond core motion ---- energy flow.
This refer to dealing with energy type level.
This level called for be able to read through the physical and motion penetrating into the energy flow. Thus, with one short, destroy the Zhong --- balance of the physical, motion, and or mental.
Third level is about energy flow beyond motion and posture ---- enter into non-duality, visual, intention, scaning... wholelistic... relative time, relative space, conservation of energy. wave generation.
(We might not want to refer Shadow as limb because if we do that then we can mistaken for chasing the hands.....ect)
Just some thought
Last edited by Phenix; 02-19-2004 at 09:14 PM.
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Hendrik sez:
(We might not want to refer Shadow as limb because if we do that then we can mistaken for chasing the hands.....ect)
---------------------------------------EXACTLY.
Joy
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Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
About numbers 10-11-12-13 :
Substitute the word "body" for shape and the word "limb(s)" for shadow...
Then it becomes clear...IMO.
That is how my sifu explained it to us, and I believe my sigong explained it to my sifu.
When there is no form, strike the shadow.
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For fun of discussion only,
Why I think Shadow is better not to substitude with limb
lets look at the:
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12. 有影續留
Yau ying juk lau - if there is a shadow, keep detaining it
The enemy strikes, but don't let them recover to make more attacks. Detain them at the end of, or midway through, their strike.
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As we know, we can hold one arm and the other might still be able strike us.
But if we jam the COG in motion. we kept everything in control.
thus,
12. become---- put the core of motion on hold (when ) there is motion.
just some thought
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Phew! Hendrik's done it again! I think I will send you all my Gary Lam's collection of Kuen Kuits so you can annotate them at your pleasure. "Yau Ying juk lau" is one of Hawkins Cheung's specialty. Not too long ago he got tested by two "friendly" top students of a certain well-known xxx on his trip abroad. The old man, as Ernie put it, took them for a ride. Those poor guys never had a chance!
Regards,
PH
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