The 4 Biggest Lies About BJJ part 1

[KnightSabre]

This is taken from the Underground Forum.

It's long but I think it's quite an interesting read and may help some people understan BJJ a little better.

Anyway here goes.

I've noticed a trend to resort to the same old wheezy arguments in style vs. style threads.

Let me be quite clear: I can respect honest healthy disagreement and debate. I consider myself primarily a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ) stylist these days, but I've trained in a lot of systems over the years (more years than I care to share with you). I can understand when people who do not practice BJJ feel that their own system may have some valid and effective ways to deal with self defense issues, and may feel that these methods are even preferable to BJJ's methods. I don't like to bash Traditional Martial Arts (of which there are actually few...Sumo springs to mind), and recognize that people take TMAs for differant and valid reasons, and that many feel that TMAs can help with self-defense. We can agree to disagree on such topics.

But is a waste of bandwidth, and you demean yourself intellectually, if you post one of the standard wheezy arguments (""The ground is the last place you want to be in a street fight"; "I (or an attacker) would just scratch / eye gouge / groin grab / bite / eagle claw someone trying to use BJJ on the street"; "You pull guard on me in the street, I (or any attacker) will just pull out a knife and bury it in you"; "You try to pull guard in the street, I (or your opponent's) 22 friends will take turns booting you in the head!") in discussing the issues, as if you have posted some new revelation that none of us have thought of before. (Feel free to add the phrases "Butt-Scoot" or "Pull Guard" to any variation of the above statements.)

As a public service, in response to the above wheezy arguments, which we shall call "wheezes", I've listed some standardized responses. To preserve precious forum bandwidth, in the future, please feel free to cut and paste these answers, or simply post the Answer Number for brevity, i.e.:

THEIR POST: "If you try to pull guard on the street, I'll just pull out my lock blade folder and bury it in your ribs!"

YOUR POST: "TSO Standard Answer 3-B. No further response needed."

In this way, You will help me achieve electronic immortality. You will also perplex new forum members in the future.

Let's get started:


STANDARD WHEEZE #1) "The ground is the last place you want to be in a street fight!"
Answer "1-A": As Mark Tripp, a judoka and noted non-BJJ player once correctly pointed out, a STREET FIGHT is the last place you want to be in a street fight! Usually, you go to the ground in a street fight BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER! In the real world, people trip (on curbs, curbstones, rocks, other combatants), slip (on mud, snow, water, because you wore slick-soled dress shoes on a date), try takedowns that seemed like a good idea at the time but didn't work out the way you planned (he grabs on to you as you try to sweep his legs out, great drunken ******* that he is, and you both go down), and, surprise surprise, you get thrown or knocked the **** down! Having a good sprawl is great, but will not keep you upright in all the above circumstances. Once you're down, your new friend may not let you get up so quick.

You don't intend to get in an accident every time you drive, but you still (should) wear your seat belt, right?

Answer "1-B": Your job may require you to take someone down and handcuff them, i.e., law enforcement officers, military personnel on prisoner snatch or peace-keeping missions, loss control prevention/security guards, etc.. Have you ever tried to get handcuffs on an actively resisting suspect without restricting his mobility by putting him on the ground? If not, you have three choices:

1) Shoot him until he is as dead as a beaver hat / disco / Democratic party political dominance (probably not recommended in all circumstances), OR

2) Have a lot of back-up (preferably large male officers who powerlift), execute the "polyester pile-up" technique," and pray that you are not caught between the offender and the officers on top of you, OR

3) If you are alone, and/or he is bigger and stronger and more chemically enhanced than you and your partner put together, have some skills that rely less on brute strength than a) leverage b) balance c) technique. Hmmm, where have we heard those three facets of that equation before?

Answer "1-C": Most people on the street have ZERO ground fighting skills. While standing, they have a rudimentary game plan at best: ("I will strike the other person until they give up or are knocked out. If he tries to strike me, I will either take his punches or try to block them. This plan, though rudimentary, has worked for me since grade school and is in accordance with every action movie/TV show/sporting event I have ever watched.") Take them to the ground and they will try to get on top and hit you, or, if they can't be on top, try to get a headlock and hang on ("HEY! I got his freakin' head!! I'm WINNING!!!). Begin to establish position, transition to a superior position, overcome resistance and apply a submission, choke, or pin, and they are clueless. You can almost see their brain freeze up, overwhelmed by the rapid transition of events. (In military parlance, you have overwhelmed their OODA ("Observe-Orient-Decide-Act") cycle).

Answer "1-D": The ground can be your friend. The ground is the side of the Octagon wall, lying flat on the ground. It limits his movements, allowing jointlocking techniques to be far more effective and difficult to escape from than if those jointlocks are applied standing, aikido or JJJ-style. If he is on the bottom, it limits his shoulder rotation and hip movement, reducing his ability to effectively strike. If it is not good for one person in a fight to be the one on the ground, then obviously, it is going to be better for the other person. WHY NOT BE THAT OTHER PERSON?
Answer "1-E": And, in the unlikely event your opponent IS a skilled groundfighter (Olympic wrestler or Judoka, ex-Spetsnaz Sambo champion, renegade BJJ black belt, or what have you), you for **** sure better have some skills on the ground, as for sure he's going to take you there and you will not have much choice in the matter).

(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 1.1: "Yeah, try pulling guard / butt-scooting In The Street!" Yes, facing an opponent in the street bent on doing me harm, I will drop to my butt, scooting towards him like a dog with worms, my legs extending and waving about like the tentacles of a giant squid, trying desperately to entwine my legs around his hips and draw him into my maw-guard so that I can perform a complicated sweep. Sheesh.

BJJ is about getting top position. Once you get top position, you defeat by strikes or submissions. Watch some of the challenge fights on the Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action vids. Do you see anyone pulling guard? Nope, Royce, Royler, Rickson, and Rorion do the same thing with monotonous regularity: clinch, takedown, establish mount, punch them until they roll and give their back, and either punch them in the back of the head some more for chuckles or choke them out. That's the progression.

If you do wind up with someone on top of you, his legs will either be outside yours (not so good) or inside your legs (better). Know how to exploit both situations to escape or attack.

(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 1.2): "The ground ain't a mat - there is gravel and crack pipes and broken glass and hot asphalt! You don't want none of that!

Answer 1.2-A: All the more reason to be on top when you go to the ground.

Answer 1.2-B: Yeah, it hurts a little to do a takedown or scramble on gravel or asphalt. It hurts less than getting your ass kicked. Cowboy up!

[KnightSabre]

STANDARD WHEEZE #2: "Real fights aren't pretty like on the mat. In The Street, people bite and claw and eye-gouge!"
Meeow! Phffsst! Meeoww!

Answer "2-A": UFC 1: Gerard Gordeau tries to bite Royce Gracie's ear off. Guess who tapped, and if Royce hadn't been such a nice guy, would have had a broken elbow. (Watch the tape if you don't believe me. You can clearly see the bite mark on Royce's ear at the end, and don't have to be a lip reader to understand what Royce was saying to the ref). Rickson would have probably broken the arm. Relson would probably have broken the arm and then killed him.

Vale Tudo 1995 (The fight chronicled in the documentary "Choke"): Gerard Gordeau (again) vs. Yuki Nakai. Gordeau eye gougees Nakai, who still taps Gordeau in an arm bar, despite sustaining serious damage to his eye. If he hadn't been in the ring with a referee nearby, do you think Gordeau would have a functioning arm (or maybe his life) today?

Answer "2-B": I have you in a falling arm-bar (juji-gatame). You say you would just bite my leg, a la Bruce Lee vs. Bolo Yeung in "Enter the Dragon". You bite, I extend my hips. Who is going to open his mouth first? I will pour some betadine on the bite and have a pretty scar to show the girls. You will have a broken arm and no teeth after I drop my boot heel on your mouth.

Answer "2-C": You can train Keena Mutai all you want; if you don't have positional control, biting won't help you much. Obviously, you do have to be careful defending against the bite (try keeping it in the back of your mind next time you roll, and see when you are vulnerable), but no way in HELL am I going to use biting as a tool in my own defensive strategy, unless it is a matter of life or death. I have too much respect for blood-borne pathogens.


STANDARD WHEEZE #3: "They pull knives out, too! Big long pointy ones! You'll get stabbed if you try to pull guard in The Street!"
Answer "3-A": I'm a big fan of movie swordfights. "The Three Musketeers," "The Duellists," I love those kind of flicks. A street knife-fight is not a duel. People do not stand at arms-length and thrust and parry, like the duellists in a movie choreographed by William Hobbs, allowing a kick or well-timed parry to disarm the attacker. A KNIFE FIGHT IS A GRAPPLING MATCH!!!!! Ask any correctional officer you know, as they have the most real-world experience in observing the aftermath of knife fights: A "real" knife fight, as opposed to a "reel" knife fight, is characterized by the knifer closing distance rapidly, crashing in, and thrusting and slashing repeatedly at close range. Your chance of surviving, either standing or on the ground, is going to be based on GETTING CONTROL OF THAT KNIFE ARM and either striking or getting a control hold (Kimura, Americana, Arm bar) what have you. Guess what? You are by definition in a grappling fight. You may get cut, no matter what your strategy, but you can keep going. The knifer will try to close range.

Answer "3-B": If possible, you want to be the guy who brought the gun to the knife fight. Even if you carry a firearm, you are going to need some skills to keep the pointy sharp thing from contacting you at conversational distance until you access your roscoe and start aiming for center mass. A gun alone isn't enough. FMA are very good in this case, or for knife/impact awareness in general. Steve Tarani has a good video/training program for this specific case. Even for the most fanatical handgunner, however, there will be times when you are unarmed. In your home, in countries/cities where gun ownership is not allowed, in correctional facilities, whether as a visitor or a resident. You NEED grappling skills.

Answer "3-C": If you think a knife is YOUR best defense on the ground, bear in mind that arriving officers / county attorneys / juries / judges WILL see the guy who used a knife against an unarmed man on the street as wrong, despite the circumstances. Bear in mind also that blood spray is non-discrimanate, and will likely wind up in your face / eyes / nose / mouth / exposed cuts. See my comments on blood-borne pathogens above. Ever stabbed another man? I haven't, but could see circumstances where I would (defense of my life or a loved one). Nevertheless, don't underestimate the psychological difficulty of gutting someone at close range, particularly in a less-than-life-or death circumstance, as well as the legal and tactical ramifications of choosing a knife as your primary defensive option, you steely-mercenary-of-death-tactical-folder-carrying-camoflage-wearing-army-surplus-store-haunting-thousand-meter-stare-wannabe-killer, you.
While it is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6, better still is to survive the 3 battlefields: Physical, Legal, and Psychological, in that order. Unless you want to perfect your knife technique against your cellie and his 5 friends over the next 7 years.

Answer "3-D": All you steely-eyed knifers, don't overestimate your ability to do anything you haven't practiced against a live, resisting opponent. In an interesting and informative post on this topic, forum member Lancifer7 wrote:

"On Saturdays, I train with Pikita-Tsirtsa (sp?) fighters. (For those unfamilar with the style, it is the MMa/Vale-Tudo of the knife & stickfighting world.) When training, we use folding training blades; when we grapple, we conceal them on our person as we normally would...and can pull them at any time. Here's the way it goes: The only safe time to pull a blade is when you have achieved back mount or mount; and if you think you can do that without BJJ or wrestling experience you = tard. Pull a blade in the guard = submission 9 out of 10 times...even with HIGHLY skilled knife-fighters. You feed the kimura, omo-lata and to a lesser extend the guillotine. We have foudn that even if you have side control or knee-on-stomach going for the blade results in your opponent escaping LONG before you finish the draw. Try it. You'll find that Lancifer = correct, and the only reason you think differently is inexperience, ignorance, and the most annoying of TMA traditions: unfounded "you-do-that-I-do-this" postulations."

Well said.


(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 3.1): "The best defense against a knife in the street is a good pair of running shoes!"

Well, duh!

Answer 3.1-A: People who attack you with a knife typically don't attack Olympic track and field medallists, who are already laced up in their nikes, at one end of a running track. They will probably try to corner or pin you in so escape is not easy. You may be wearing shoes that are hard to run in. You may be on an slippery wet or icy surface. You may not be a good runner. You may be injured or out of breath. Your attacker may be a better runner than you are. You may be with someone you don't want to leave behind (e.g., your child, wife, or girlfriend) after you yell, "Feets, Do Your Stuff!" and make like a gazelle. In short, you may have to stay and fight. Other than that, no ****, Sherlock, try to get out of there as your first option.

[KnightSabre]

STANDARD WHEEZE #4) "And they have friends, too! BJJ can't deal with multiple opponents because his friends will step in and start kicking you in the head over and over and over and over and over as soon as you go to the ground!, like a carny roughneck work-gang taking turns pounding in a big top tentpeg!" (("Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud...and get kicked...in the head..by an IRON BOOT?" - Robert Stack in "Airplane!")) Answer "4-A": Maybe I am the one with friends.
Answer "4-B": I think the people who believe they have a valid stand-up street defense against multiple attackers saw the fight scene in the park in "Billy Jack" one time too many.

So all you stand-up guys, your solution to group attack is....What? Remaining standing and picking them off one at a time with a flurry of well-placed kicks? Eye jabs, pak sau, and biting?

Here is a base-level truth: Your chances of effectively fighting off a group of determined, coordinated attackers who outnumber you, without a weapon, are slim to none. By "determined and coordinated" I mean a cohesive group with a strong sense of self identity who are used to fighting together. That can mean a biker gang, a squad of Marines out on the town, bouncers who work together, a street gang, a rugby or football team, etc.

How about a group of undetermined and uncoordinated fighters? Your odds open up a bit. Most of you who will say you have beat multiple attackers probably met the latter group. We'll call them a "cluster group". I have seen several occasions where one guy backed down a larger cluster group by serious threat display. In all cases, the group were friends or acquantainces, some members maybe bigger than the lone guy, some of them probably good fighters, but none of them felt strongly enough about their group to risk taking one in the head for the team so everyone else could stomp the guy. No one in a cluster group wants to be the guy who gets teeth knocked out so everyone else can mob the guy. That video of the badass skateboarder smacking down and backing down the fratboys that was posted recently on the forum is a textbook example. Examples of cluster groups include guys who know each other from work or school going out for a drink, fans at a sporting event (Soccer hooligans perhaps being the exception), drink- or drug--impaired party goers, or a group in a lynch-mob mentality who don't know the other members well.

Laying a quick and serious hurting on someone (a broken elbow, strikes from the mount or knee on stomach), the kind that makes onlookers go "Yeeowch!", may back down a lot of guys, again, from the cluster group. A standing control hold or choke can make people back off until you can get to safety or someone breaks it up. A friend avoided a racially-motivated beat-down from some drunken frat party-goers by grabbing one in a standing rear-naked choke and backing up with him until he could sweep his legs and jump into a friend's car and get away. (This after taking down another drunk, getting mount, and getting in 3 or 4 punches before anyone reacted.) A Brazilian acquaintance who spent time in prison told me he regularly used the mata leao choke in a melee, grabbing his man and then (and he said this is very important...) getting his back to the wall where he wouldn't be blindsided. he'd break their balance, choke 'em out, then get to safety or grab another.


Answer "4-C": You may not need to go the ground. Most BJJ guys won't, on the street. But, as Eric Knauss of the Dog Brothers says, "Grappling happens. It just does." Even if you want to stay standing, and use the often taught (and valid) technique of "lining up your attackers", we live in a world cluttered with rubble. If you don't get taken down or knocked down, you are still likely to trip or fall. You better have a plan to get someone off you, ESPECIALLY if there are multiple attackers. See Answer 1-A above.

Well anywayz I thought it was pretty interesting.

[Merryprankster]

Good stuff.

It once again demonstrates that common sense and adapting to circumstances, regardless of style, is the primary "self-defense," technique.

I'd also point out that if you are familiar standing and on the ground, you are that much more adaptable, and hence, have a greater chance of success (survival).

I particularly like the knife vs. unarmed attacker point. All the knife defenses I have ever seen CENTER around gaining control of the offending hand. Interesting post by the one fellow.

Ap, guess what you and I are trying next?!

[jon]

Some of this makes no sence to me.
I also dont get the relevence of using the UFC as a reference for street encounters.


"STANDARD WHEEZE #1) "The ground is the last place you want to be in a street fight!"
"Answer "1-A": As Mark Tripp, a judoka and noted non-BJJ player once correctly pointed out, a STREET FIGHT is the last place you want to be in a street fight! Usually, you go to the ground in a street fight BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER! "
* BJJ is an art which chooses to perform the vast majority of its techniques from the ground. In a fight you are likely to do what you are best trained in and what has worked for you in the past. If your main skill set is ground fighting you will likely at some point take the fight to the ground even in pure reflex.

"In the real world, people trip (on curbs, curbstones, rocks, other combatants), slip (on mud, snow, water, because you wore slick-soled dress shoes on a date), try takedowns that seemed like a good idea at the time but didn't work out the way you planned (he grabs on to you as you try to sweep his legs out, great drunken ******* that he is, and you both go down), and, surprise surprise, you get thrown or knocked the **** down!"
* Fine and dandy. No one is advocating having *no* ground defence. Many people advocate that deliberately taking a street fight there is a poor idea. BJJ is an art which again seeks to take its opponent to the ground.

"Royce, Royler, Rickson, and Rorion do the same thing with monotonous regularity: clinch, takedown, establish mount, punch them until they roll and give their back, and either punch them in the back of the head some more for chuckles or choke them out. That's the progression."
* This is what im saying. The mindset is to take the opponent to the ground. If the argument is then that BJJ is aware that being on the ground is a poor idea in a 'streetfight' then why do there top practioners deliberately take all there fights there?

"Answer "1-B": Your job may require you to take someone down and handcuff them"
* Your job may be a milkman. This whole arguement is about BJJ on the street. I hardly think this is relevent.

"Answer "1-C": Most people on the street have ZERO ground fighting skills. While standing, they have a rudimentary game plan at best: ("I will strike the other person until they give up or are knocked out."
* This is a poor argument, i could also say that most people on the street dont know cma so that gives me an automatic huge advantage.

"Answer "1-D": The ground can be your friend."
* It *could* certainly. I think the argument is that going to the ground is 'generaly' a bad idea. Absolutes in fighting are retarded, ive seen enough people of good skill get knocked out by lucky punches to know that.

"Answer "1-E": And, in the unlikely event your opponent IS a skilled groundfighter (Olympic wrestler or Judoka, ex-Spetsnaz Sambo champion, renegade BJJ black belt, or what have you), you for **** sure better have some skills on the ground, as for sure he's going to take you there and you will not have much choice in the matter)."
* Again they could also be a ninja assasin and you darn well better know how to find them when they disappear and start throwing ninja stars at you Again pointless arguement.

"(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 1.1: "Yeah, try pulling guard / butt-scooting In The Street!" Yes, facing an opponent in the street bent on doing me harm, I will drop to my butt, scooting towards him like a dog with worms, my legs extending and waving about like the tentacles of a giant squid, trying desperately to entwine my legs around his hips and draw him into my maw-guard so that I can perform a complicated sweep. Sheesh. "
* So why then is so much time spent training like this? Could it be that the rule sets usualy used for fighting in these tournaments allow such practices? Again if you know such things are poor self defence then why bill it as such?

"(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 1.2): "The ground ain't a mat - there is gravel and crack pipes and broken glass and hot asphalt! You don't want none of that!"
"Answer 1.2-A: All the more reason to be on top when you go to the ground. "
* Or not go there deliberately at all! Why say 'when' could it be that its where your 'planning' on going in the first place?

"Answer 1.2-B: Yeah, it hurts a little to do a takedown or scramble on gravel or asphalt. It hurts less than getting your ass kicked. Cowboy up!"
* Brilliant answer... Lets just avoid the issue entirely


"STANDARD WHEEZE #2: "Real fights aren't pretty like on the mat. In The Street, people bite and claw and eye-gouge!"
"Answer "2-A": UFC 1: Gerard Gordeau tries to bite Royce Gracie's ear off. Guess who tapped, and if Royce hadn't been such a nice guy, would have had a broken elbow."
* If it had not been Royce and had been a less skilled exponent with only a few months training he may have lost his ear. I also fail to see why Gerard didnt simply bury his teeth and rip? Possibly becouse he was trying to make Royce 'let go'?

"Answer "2-B": I have you in a falling arm-bar (juji-gatame). You say you would just bite my leg, a la Bruce Lee vs. Bolo Yeung in "Enter the Dragon".
* I dont think anyone is advocating that biting is the first defence against a groundfighter. Still it doesnt take much of a stretch to see that becouse biting is illegal in most forms of wrestling then obviously it will develop without protecting against it either.

"Answer "2-C": You can train Keena Mutai all you want; if you don't have positional control, biting won't help you much."
* Biting does not require any particular body mechanic, postional control matters little. Its always a last resort for anyone.

"STANDARD WHEEZE #3: "They pull knives out, too! Big long pointy ones! You'll get stabbed if you try to pull guard in The Street!"
"Answer "3-A"
* Agree with most of this so ill leave it.

"Answer "3-B": If possible, you want to be the guy who brought the gun to the knife fight. Even if you carry a firearm, you are going to need some skills to keep the pointy sharp thing from contacting you at conversational distance until you access your roscoe and start aiming for center mass. A gun alone isn't enough. FMA are very good in this case, or for knife/impact awareness in general. Steve Tarani has a good video/training program for this specific case. Even for the most fanatical handgunner, however, there will be times when you are unarmed. In your home, in countries/cities where gun ownership is not allowed, in correctional facilities, whether as a visitor or a resident. You NEED grappling skills."
* How does this affect the argument at hand "You'll get stabbed if you try to pull guard in The Street!"?

[Former castleva]

I do not like readily supposed arguments to the direction of "all real fights go this way" in my opinion is closer to burying one´s head to sand than relying more on stand-up game/grappling game/multiple areas.
Actually most attacks will end up jointlocking,pinning,striking,kicking,weapon working,throwing,breaking,choking,whatever...lol lol lol. (Actually nearly as impossible to say as saying "well it ends up on the ground" pfffffhhh,Okay then.It could,or could not)
Standing back to see the grey.

What if we just assume that all legitimate arts are worthy,and there are more.No need to prove a point that way,which should not be a big deal anyway.Such ill-mannered arguments probably grew out of ignorance and lesser interest to look over one´s own circle.Not a primary concern?

[jon]

"Answer "3-C": If you think a knife is YOUR best defense on the ground, bear in mind that arriving officers / county attorneys / juries / judges WILL see the guy who used a knife against an unarmed man on the street as wrong, despite the circumstances."
* Again pointless, im not worried about attacking a BJJ guy with Knife when he is in the gaurd. The discussion again is on why going into the gaurd in the first place could be a poor idea when facing an armed assilant. IMHO anything that limits your movement and the ablity to get the hell out of there is a detriment. I would hardly consider grappling with the guy to be my top priority - infact a last resort.

Answer "3-D":
* Im not sure i get the relevence of his examples here, it would strike me that its simply becouse the guys he cites train groundfighting that this is also where they prefer to cut from.
Personaly i can generate a heck of a lot more power with a blade standing. I would also *if* i was going to attack someone have the blade in such a postion it couldnt be grabbed easily and could still be used to do nasty damage. If i want your wallet im hardly going to clinch mount and then intimidate you with my knife, ill simply hold it next to your neck, cut enough so you know im serious and then start making demands. Again this is self defence NOT DUELING.. At least according to the poster.

"(BONUS SUB-STRAWMAN ARGUMENT 3.1): "The best defense against a knife in the street is a good pair of running shoes!"
* Remind me again how this relates to the argument at hand.
'groundfighting vs a knifeweilder is a poor idea'


"STANDARD WHEEZE #4) "And they have friends, too! BJJ can't deal with multiple opponents because his friends will step in and start kicking you in the head over and over and over and over and over as soon as you go to the ground!,"
"Answer "4-A": Maybe I am the one with friends."
*Maybe your not, now what?

"Answer "4-B": I think the people who believe they have a valid stand-up street defense against multiple attackers saw the fight scene in the park in "Billy Jack" one time too many."
* Actualy its commen sence...
In a multiple situation your best option is get the heck to saftey right? Failing that at least try to seperate your attackers enough so your not dealing with them all at once.
How does being on the ground help in either of these basic truths?

"So all you stand-up guys, your solution to group attack is....What? Remaining standing and picking them off one at a time with a flurry of well-placed kicks? Eye jabs, pak sau, and biting? "
* Run or sperate that is the general plan.
When i say seperate i mean by any means possible, either simply taking one out and then running, pushing them into each other. Either way the last thing you want is them all comming in at once.

"Here is a base-level truth: Your chances of effectively fighting off a group of determined, coordinated attackers who outnumber you, without a weapon, are slim to none."
* Strange 'base level truth' considering its totaly subjective. Not to mention the numerous cases thoughout history of people fighting and beating multiple opponents. Heck armys do it all the time. Same concepts really - skill and intelligence vs brute force.
Again how does this affect the arguement 'groudfighting multiples is a poor idea'?

"Laying a quick and serious hurting on someone (a broken elbow, strikes from the mount or knee on stomach), the kind that makes onlookers go "Yeeowch!", may back down a lot of guys, again, from the cluster group. A standing control hold or choke can make people back off until you can get to safety or someone breaks it up. "
* Yeah or your attackers *could* be smart enough to figure out 'if we all rush it at once when hes occupied what the heck is he gonna do?'

"Answer "4-C": You may not need to go the ground. Most BJJ guys won't, on the street."
* I think my head is about to explode....
If going to the ground 'on the street' is a bad idea and most of your own practioners wont do it then why are you trying to justify the practice with this post?





Sorry im just bored.
I also just come from a different mindset and heck im allowed to disagree here and there.
I also realise this is a repost so i hope KnightSabre does not think im addressing him with my questions which are basicaly retorical.

[Royal Dragon]

So all you stand-up guys, your solution to group attack is....What? Remaining standing and picking them off one at a time with a flurry of well-placed kicks? Eye jabs, pak sau, and biting?

Reply]
You act like this is a bad thing?? Like kicks and punches are inefective?? I have been in multiple attacker fights, and yes I won. Basically I threw down, Kicked Punched threw them into one another and the only ones who ended up on the ground were my attackers. And they could not walk by the time they got there so they were no longer a threat.


>>Here is a base-level truth: Your chances of effectively fighting off a group of determined, coordinated attackers who outnumber you, without a weapon, are slim to none. By "determined and coordinated" I mean a cohesive group with a strong sense of self identity who are used to fighting together. That can mean a biker gang, a squad of Marines out on the town, bouncers who work together, a street gang, a rugby or football team, etc.

Reply]
No kidding. Going to the ground is even MORE Suicidal in these situations. In a case like this, a good stand up grapeling/throwing style like Taiji Quan or Shui Chiao combined with some trak and fied experiance is going to be your best bet.

You want to Aviod (footwork, footwork, footwork!!!)Hit, Lock, Throw and run. If you are going down anyway, your Bjj may help, but to be specially trained in an art that makes you go down on instinc would be a MAJOR detrimet in this situation.

Remember, footwork! footwork!! footwork!!! is what you really need here. This is something Bjj pretty much avoids as the whole scope of that art is to charge in and take you down so you can wrassle. Maybe if all you can do is Wrassle, you may think that it's a major selling point, but good footwork will keep you off the ground and is MUCH more important ESPECIALLY against a mob!!!

Reling on a Ground fighting background in a multiple opponent situation is like trying to make a Soup Sandwich...............and you can put THAT in your signature!!!!

[MA fanatic]

This had to have been one of the most brilliant posts I had ever read.

For those who fail to see why he included the UFC examples, that was to show that biting and eye gouging is not the answer against grapplers. Actually, he used fewer examples than he could have. In an NHB arena, fighters have tried biting, eye gouging and fishhooking. All didn't even make a grappler flinch. I'd also add that the last person you'd want to try such tactics against is a grappler. You don't want to fight a grappler who is permited to eye gouge, fish hook, use dangerous pressure points, or bite. The TMA guy will lose all the time.

JON: That "knife" example you didnt like, he was just responding to comments made by sime TMA guys. Some TMA guys did in fact state on the Underground Forum that their responce to BJJ would be a knife.

Otherwise, unless you actually role with a good grappler, you have no idea how useless 90% of the CMA's self defense techniques really are.
MA fanatic

[Merryprankster]

He's suggesting it's situationally dependent. He's not arguing that you should take your opponents down and finish them in all cases. He's pointing out that specific examples aren't very useful by providing OTHER specific examples and pointing out "hey, it could go this way too."

Groundfighting and grappling are necessary components to a self-defense program. You have to know how to get up and how to avoid getting on the ground in the first place.

I promise you that as a BJJ practitioner with a wrestling background, I stand a much better chance of dictating the range of the fight than most "stand-up," fighters. Sweeping a non-grappler is easier than breathing. Avoiding a non-grappler's takedown is even simpler. Dominating them in a clinch is REALLY simple.

I am, however, concerned about knives.

In sport BJJ, of course, this matters little

[sweaty_dog]

jon, could you outline some of the strong points of your own style?

[scotty1]

"Otherwise, unless you actually role with a good grappler, you have no idea how useless 90% of the CMA's self defense techniques really are"

Jesus, that's a bold statement.

I think some people argue extremes. In reality, its 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

[Merryprankster]

Yeah, I gotta go with scotty, MA Fanatic,

That's a bit over the top.

Royal's got the right idea, make a hole and bail. However, you're NOT going to avoid grappling in a multiple opponent scenario, and the better you are at dealing with it, the better your chances.

[BeiKongHui]

So do you get like Marlboro Miles or something for preaching the Gospel to the infidels? Perhaps saint Helio will save a seat for you at his right hand, eh?

[Cipher]

Originally posted by MA fanatic
........Otherwise, unless you actually role with a good grappler, you have no idea how useless 90% of the CMA's self defense techniques really are.
MA fanatic.......

I like reading a good post about anything weather it is grappling or stand up as long as I can learn something. But, to go on a forum at KUNGFUonline.com and say this is just as, if not more ignorant than any anti grapple crap I have seen. Not to mention that the actual statement is just as ignorant in itself alone.