Why have we yet to see a REAL CMA in the UFC?

[LEGEND]

There are big Sanda tournaments in China. They have matches with Karate, Muay-Thai fighters from Japan and Thailand. So why aren't there any UFC fighters in China?

China pays how much??? How much again??? How much???
You see UFC fighters in Brazil...u see UFC fighters in Japan...u see UFC fighters in USA! Pay them...and u'll see them in CHINA. UFC fighters compete in K-1 tourneys in JAPAN...they have no problems competing in CHINA...however u have to PAY THEM!

[sweaty_dog]

"Thats the difference between a fighter and a Sifu. A fighter has a handfull of techniques he trains ad nauseum. A sifu has a much higher repetuior. A Sifu can always be a fighter, but a fighter can't be a Sifu. When a Sifu is a fighter, you have wude or some philosophy guiding the beast, with a fighter, you have depend on luck and hope you don't make a Tyson.


Another problem is that most guys in kung fu, after learning how to handle themselves, have nothing left to prove and continue for the love of it. Get someone thats powerfull, and still has deep insecurity and you've got yourself a fighter. "


You do realise a "sifu" can also be a cab driver or a cook, nothing to do with martial arts? Where does this idea come from that the title "sifu" automatically makes you a nice guy?


The fact is there is no law saying an MMA fight has to be grappling. In fact if nothing happens they will stand the fighters up. If you can defend takedowns you can stay on your feet, it's as simple as that. Yes, you will have to leave your favourite eye ripping attacks at home, but then you don't need them against "neanderthals" do you?

Also, Lioukault, for a BJJ guy my archery is decent (or it used to be). I also have a vague idea of how to swing a sword.

[friday]

hmmm i have to agree with SD on that point. so called 'sifus' have their fair share of bad people and substantial numbers can be great people. i've seen good ones and bad ones in the short time i have been involved in martial arts.

as for CMA in UFC, pride...
does it really matter? if it happens it'd be great to watch but if it doesn't happen i'm not really all that worried by it. the UFC etc is a fight sporting format with rules applied that gives a decent degree of freedom for most martial arts to apply their skills in the arena. its a great venue of fighters to make money and apply their martial arts.

as for why 'real' CMAs haven't been in the UFC etc...there can be a whole stack of reasons for why, why not, when etc. its all personal agendas, speculation etc.

my personal opinion of this whole MMA vs CMA vs TMA, etc is this:

- if u can't fight don't claim that u can. (this being the biggest thing that aggravates MMA people it seems)
- if u claim that u can fight and kick ass then be prepared to be called up to prove it.
- biggest issue with some CMA training nowadays is that they don't apply their material in real time situations for watever reasons. mayb there is a point there that some of us can learn from. there are CMA out there who are for real, train hard etc.
- CMA provides different benefits to different ppl. for me it has all those things but must have fighting applicability to it.

- my opinion on training with MMA. i have absolutely no issues with it. if they are good people to train with and i can learn things even if i have my personal agenda of learning to apply my own stuff to different arts so be it. its great!


friday

[MA fanatic]

I have to say that many UFC champions have been real classical martial artists. BJJ is a TMA. Why shouldn't it be considered as such? It has everything, yes even includes lineage, any other TMA does. Actually, it is as old as, if not older than many TMAs. We also saw UFC guys who trained in JUDO. That's a TMA. We saw fighters from Muay Thai be successfull. That is a TMA (older than many Kung Fu styles). We saw Sambo guys fight and do well (that is a TMA developed in the former Soviet Union...very complete system and not just sport). We saw guys compete in MMA competitions with backgrounds in Kyokushinkai, and Pankration. Those are TMAs. The jury is still out on whether or not Wrestling is a TMA. Some say it is the oldest form of TMA. And, wrestlers have dominated many no rules competitions. We have seen Luta Livre guys compete in an NHB ring. That could be considered a TMA as well (by modern TMA standards...lets keep in mind that many TMAs have been created fairly recently). As for masters who talk bad about UFC fighters claiming that they train to "fight for real" that's a lot of talk and excuses. (We have seen karate, ninjitsu, kung fu...wing chun, tkd, boxers, and kyoshu guys destroyed in the UFC...even more in some other local NHB tournaments. Now they just don't step up because as many excuses as they can make up, deep down there is only one reason. Most will get killed because they're out of shape, can't take a solid hit, will lose on the ground, lose pychologicaly before the fight, and don't have full confidence in the techniques they teach.)

MMA guys have not discovered anything new. They just discovered more effective methods of training. I"m sure any of the UFC champions would be able to handle himself in a street fight much better than the majority of so called TMA/CMA masters. As a matter of fact, in a street fight, I'd rather have Sakuraba next to me, or Igor Vovchanchin, than the Kung Fu instructor who runs a school down the block.
MA fanatic

[cagey_vet]

2 reasons why CMA guys will never be properly represented in
MMA competition on the whole:

1. lack of qualified individuals who actually do nothing but fight.
knowing this is a career shortener, i can see why guys may not
want to pursue this avenue.
look at it this way - fellas like shamrock and ortiz, while great
athletes and fighters in their own right, may not have the
extended career path that most CMA guys would have. will
shamrock even be able to WALK in 15 years let alone do a decent
tai chi set? does he even CARE? i would venture to say that when
i am 80 or 90, i will still be able to perform my hsing-i sets because
i chose not to concentrate solely on fighting or training to fight.
80 or 90... heck, even if -i- dont get there, i know there are plenty
of guys who will, and will still be able to walk and talk and chew
gum at the same time.
but again, what sane CMA guy wants to shorten a career for a
few minutes of glory and an awful lot of risk?
and again, can any MMA guy do the Grand Circulation? do -any-
of them care? my contention is to let them do their thing, while we do ours. why do we seek justification and respect from MMA
people all the time? i know what i can do, they know what they
can do and we are totally different. i may not want to do what
they do and they may not want to do what i can do. fabulous.
thats fine by me.
i am not saying that one should never fight, quite the contrary.
but i certainly dont believe in fighting CMA to the extreme. which brings me to ---

2. no one of material consequence would pay to see a -true-
CMA guy fight a MMA guy (at least in the real world). true martial artists are hard to find among all the CardioKickBox and tae bo enthusiasts, and i think for the most part that the few thousand
-truly- dedicated CMA people in the country would not have the
consensus to make a difference in 'ratings' or be responsible for a dependable 'demographic' in which marketing and fanfare would
be directed towards. ever see anything related on tv or any
other live event WITHOUT advertising or some sponsorship?
true CMA is subtle, refined, and thus for the most part not very
exciting to the uneducated, untrained, UNSOPHISTICATED eye.
yes, i said "few thousand" (more like a few hundred, possibly). seeing the fakes and phonies that we have, i can honestly say there arent many truly dedicated adherents around anymore.
not enough to make a dent or make MMA competitions attractive enough to an advertiser or sponsor.

i dont think real CMA guys are chickensh*t fighters.
its just a different mindset altogether.

MMA guys arent interested in learning complicated hand sets,
or refined biomechanical movement, or esoteric philosophies,
or any of the cool stuff inherent in COMPLETE styles of CMA.
there is no, repeat, -no- complete MMA.
kinda tells you something right there doesnt it.

we are 2 different paradigms.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cagey_vet
1. lack of qualified individuals who actually do nothing but fight.
knowing this is a career shortener, i can see why guys may not
want to pursue this avenue.
look at it this way - fellas like shamrock and ortiz, while great
athletes and fighters in their own right, may not have the
extended career path that most CMA guys would have. will
shamrock even be able to WALK in 15 years let alone do a decent
tai chi set? does he even CARE? i would venture to say that when
i am 80 or 90, i will still be able to perform my hsing-i sets because
i chose not to concentrate solely on fighting or training to fight.
My guess is that yes, they will. They're not breaking bones, only manipulating them. They will be fine in old age, unless they have some type of trauma from the striking. Knee injuries abound, but that is not limited to MMA

why do we seek justification and respect from MMA
people all the time? i know what i can do, they know what they
can do and we are totally different. i may not want to do what
they do and they may not want to do what i can do. fabulous.
thats fine by me.

The need to prove your style. MMA didn't bother CMA until CMA started talking about how they could defend easily against grappling techniques. So far, it has yet to happen. Perhaps CMA want to finally show that they can use their stuff to defend bjj takedowns.


true CMA is subtle, refined, and thus for the most part not very
exciting to the uneducated, untrained, UNSOPHISTICATED eye.
yes, i said "few thousand" (more like a few hundred, possibly). seeing the fakes and phonies that we have, i can honestly say there arent many truly dedicated adherents around anymore.
not enough to make a dent or make MMA competitions attractive enough to an advertiser or sponsor.

Watch a submission grappling match. it is VERY refined, and boring if you are not a grappling fan, or don't know what's going on.

i dont think real CMA guys are chickensh*t fighters.
its just a different mindset altogether.

MMA guys arent interested in learning complicated hand sets,
or refined biomechanical movement, or esoteric philosophies,
or any of the cool stuff inherent in COMPLETE styles of CMA.
there is no, repeat, -no- complete MMA.
kinda tells you something right there doesnt it.

we are 2 different paradigms.

Dead wrong. grappling is extremely biomechanical and very subtle, as I stated above. when you are dealing with immobilizing a person effectively, locking joints, maneuring in awkward positions, etc. you HAVE to pay close attention to mechanics, there simply is no other way. As for completeness, you don't need philosophy to be complete. MA = MARTIAL art. the original intention of MA was to prepare for combat. archery, weapons, hand to hand, etc. all fall into this category - history and philosophy does not.

[ewallace]

You will never see a REAL CMA in the UFC because once a CMA fights in the UFC, he will no longer be considered REAL by his peers, especially if he loses. Catch-22.

[SevenStar]

I was reading an article about Gene Chicoine on the net, and ran across this:

Chicoine likes to use his advanced rank and position to preserve the art exactly as he-and generations of fighters before him-learned it. "The original concept of all martial arts was not a sport," he explains. "They were designed to fight-to defend yourself or to attack. Exercise and the mental aspects came in later. The original concept was strictly for fighting, and to take that away destroys the art."


That would say that even in at least some CMA, history, philosophy and all the cool stuff are not necessary to be a complete martial art.

[Merryprankster]

Cagey_vet has once again demonstrated my little maxim:

If the hubris of MMA is tough guy posturing, the hubris of CMA is baseless, arrogant snobbery.

I LOVE grappling... but I sure can't take much of watching it. Boring as hell for the most part... and I KNOW what's going on.

Finally, it's really simple: Don't write checks you can't cash. You make claims to an MMAer or any other sport artist, you better be prepared to back it up. We don't suffer bull**** gladly. That ain't "tough guy," crap... it's common sense. Would you take it at somebody's word that the money you invest is going to get a 50% return or might you ask for a prospectus?

I don't have a problem with CMA. I have a problem with arrogant *****s who think they're above it all and then talk about how freakin refined everything they do is.

In the words of Q. Rice "Bring it, don't sing it."

Of course, I'm sure I'll be told I'm just jealous and I don't understand.

[Shadow Dragon]

There is only one way to see " real CMA" in the UFC, and that is by digging up old masters, taking their DNA , cloning them and than sending them in.


Could Royce choke Chang Sang Feng or Kano sensei??

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

Who is Chang Sang Feng?

[Chang Style Novice]

The legendary inventor of Taijiquan, if indeed he is anybody. Mists of time and all that.

[Shadow Dragon]

Seven.

The alleged founder of Tai Chi Chuan and the internal principles.

But any of the big names will do.

Cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

Nope, not the founder of internal principals, Chen Po predates him by a good 200-300 years, or more depending on who's history you believe.

According to Yang Jwing ming's book, 37 and 64 move Taiji Quan existed as far back as the Tang dynasty.

I say it goes back 2700 years to the writting of the I Ching. I figure if the internal arts are all based off that book, and it was written 2700 years ago, then there *Must* have been physical examples of the technology in existance for it to be written down.

Personally, I want to see Royce fight a Roman Gladiator.

[Water Dragon]

MerryPrankster,
I'm afraid you just don't understand, you jealous simpleton